Saving Face

[00:00:00] Some movies are ahead of their time and Saving Face is absolutely one of them. Long before Hollywood started having bigger conversations about queer representation and Asian American storytelling, this indie gem gave us romance, family drama, generational conflict, and one of the most tender love stories of the 2000s. For Pride Month, we're revisiting a

[00:00:21] film that deserves so much more love. Welcome to the No More Late Fees podcast. I'm Danielle. And I'm Jackie, and we're just two best friends and ex-blockbuster employees re-watching some of the best and worst movies from the late 90s and early 2000s. This week for Pride Month, we're covering

[00:00:51] the 2004 indie romantic comedy drama Saving Face. But before we dive in, let's get into some Hockey Bing. If you love the podcast and you want to support us, here's how you can. Well, an easy way to show us your love is to make sure you hit the subscribe button on your favorite

[00:01:16] podcast platform. And then guess what? You'll get alerts when new episodes are live. All right, Jackie, what is Saving Face about? A young Chinese American surgeon named Will struggles to balance her personal life with the expectations of her traditional family while secretly navigating a romance with dancer Vivian. At the same time, Will's mother unexpectedly finds herself at the center of

[00:01:42] a scandal within the community after becoming pregnant out of wedlock. It stars Joan Chen, Michelle Krucik, Lin Chen, and Jin Wang. It was written and directed by Alice Wu, and you can currently rent it on Amazon Prime. But before we get started, let's get into our ratings rewind. So you know the drill. Before we get into the movie, we'll reveal the rating our Y2K versions of ourselves would give. Then at the end, we'll see if our current selves agree with the initial

[00:02:10] rating. Our scale consists of would buy it, would buy it again. The best would play on repeat. Five day rental. Wood watch again. Two day rental. It's okay, but nothing to write home about. Yep. And same day rental. Throw it into the Hudson. It's trash. All right, Jackie, what was your Y2K rating of Saving Face? I have actually never seen this movie.

[00:02:38] How about you? Five day rental for me. When I first saw this movie, I was... Because of the mother-daughter dynamic, I think that is what attracted me to it. And like, being a first generation child of an immigrant parent, there's a lot of things that resonated, even though obviously I'm not Chinese, but those elements spoke to me. So yeah.

[00:03:08] All right. Why don't you tell us about the box office? So this movie came out May 27th, 2005. It had a budget of $2.5 million. It made $1.2 million. Obviously, it didn't make it in the top five, but the opening week box office at the time was The Longest Yard at number one, Star Wars Episode III, Revenge of the Sith at number two,

[00:03:37] Madagascar at number three, Monster in Law at number four, and Kicking and Screaming at number five. That's a hell of a top five. Yeah, for sure. So we don't have a wonderful tidbit from Lil Raj this week. So I'm going to pull Stephen Holden of the New York Times. And he called it an amiable romance spanning three generations of Chinese Americans. He reviewed that the film had failings at the end.

[00:04:08] Sadly, as Saving Face ties up the strands of its story, it forfeits its credibility at a wedding finale with a series of instant feel-good solutions and reconciliations. While Owen Gleiberman at the Entertainment Weekly praised the movie's interesting storyline and twist, but stated that the writer-actor, I'm not sorry, writer-director Alice Wu fudges a lot of basics. I never believed the heroine was really a physician.

[00:04:37] I'm sorry. Was that a man? That's... What? These reviews actually are not reading well. David Rooney of Variety Media said the film excelled at spanning the fragile bridge between traditional values and independent spirit and providing gentle humor and universal emotional experience.

[00:05:04] However, despite the satisfying payoff, he also criticized the film for its predictability, pacing, and momentum. I'm sorry, what? When I tell you racism is alive and well in America. So here's the thing, like, the goalpost, I always feel, is just, like, constantly moving.

[00:05:30] It takes, especially back then, it's still actually pretty difficult, but back then it was excruciatingly difficult to get these films made. Yeah. And I think this is why the continued conversation to have diversity in every aspect of the studio system needs to be looked at.

[00:05:56] Because it's not just, like, it's hard enough to get a writer, a director, a producer of any kind of funding to get the studio to pick it up. Distribution. So think about, like, all those hurdles in itself, right? And then when it's time for the budget to have marketing to get it in front of the right people. And then you have to fight to get it in theaters. Yeah.

[00:06:23] Because back then, I think this only opened into, like, maybe six theaters at first and then got expansion. So it's like, then it tells you this kind of story that the movie was poorly received, but also it didn't get too many people in the first place. Like, did you hear about this movie before? I was like, oh, let's do it. I remember seeing it on the shelves. Yeah, when we were blockbusted.

[00:06:52] But I never saw any. The only reason I remember seeing this movie is because I was watching other independent films and it was in the trailer. The trailer was in the movie I was watching. That was how I kind of discovered anything else. So, yes, it's not as formulaic. So this movie came out the same year as Hitch, which Will Smith's production company is what picked this movie up.

[00:07:20] But Hitch is a very formulaic romantic comedy. Yeah. So, yes, it's not that. Yes, it does not follow a typical romantic comedy dramedy formula. But at no point was I like, oh, this movie is dragging or when is this going to be over? Like, the story carried throughout.

[00:07:45] There were no lulls in the storytelling itself or progression of the plot. Yeah. It was just, I feel like they're coming from a lens of this isn't what we're used to seeing. Right. And so I'm bored. I, like, look, I can look at this. I can look at the movie and say, like, yeah, there were some things that I'm like, huh. I remember when I watched it and it didn't feel that way.

[00:08:14] So now it's like more of an age kind of situation. But this is her debut movie. She directed it, wrote it. And really gave, I think, a great glimpse for an outsider who's not in the Chinese American community. And that's all I could speak to. She gave a glimpse as to what that was like.

[00:08:37] And I think what is great about it, it is that it does come from the Chinese American perspective versus if I'm watching a Chinese movie where it's in China. Like, it's a totally different experience where you're living a double life, essentially, as an immigrant living in America, but still very rooted in your homeland. And then a child trying to figure out and navigate their way.

[00:09:06] And the character has to deal with not only her just being an immigrant child, but now she's gay on top of it. And the taboos, not only in our country, but from back home. So it's just layers to it. And, like, how could you think that's formulaic? Where else are you getting that? So, you know, it did premiere at the Toronto International Film Festival.

[00:09:36] It did a few, it did, like, the whole film festival circuit, essentially. But, yeah. Your expert opinion was this shot in New York. Yeah. Okay. Because the basketball hoop, or the basketball court where he's doing Tai Chi, there was a giant maple leaf on the ground. Like, painted on the ground. And I was like, that doesn't feel like New York. Oh, yeah.

[00:10:03] That, all the city parks, that is the symbol. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah. Look at me learning. But they, so, where her family lives is supposed to be Flushing. Yeah. And so, Flushing is predominantly Asian, but it's, I feel like when I was younger, Flushing had a huge Jewish population as well. I mean, that's where the nanny's from. Exactly.

[00:10:32] But it is, like, if you want to get some of the best Asian cuisine ever, Flushing is where you would go for sure. Oh. Also some parts of New Jersey. I know I don't usually like to give that state any kind of anything. Throw an Andrew a crumb. Oh, throw him a crumb. That they have really good Asian restaurants. And as he would always push, diners. Just saying. I do love a good diner.

[00:11:02] Yeah. Well, before we get into the casting crew, let's hear a message from our pod pals. Was deine Haut braucht, ist, was deine Haut braucht. Pigmentflecken reduzieren und vorbeugen durch innovative Wirkstoffe und höchsten UV-Schutz. Eubos Anti-Age. Dein neues Duo gegen Pigmentflecken und Hautalterung. Eubos. Individual Skincare.

[00:11:33] Hey everybody, I'm Joe Welke. And I'm Vance. And we're the hosts of Boys Watching Buffy. A podcast where we watch cult classic TV shows for the first time ever and break down each episode. We've reviewed Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angel. Firefly. And despite the name of the podcast, we're currently reviewing Veronica Mars and Dollhouse. So check out our episodes every Tuesday on all podcasting platforms.

[00:12:04] All right, Jackie. So what do we got with cast and crew? Yeah. Saving Face was Alice Wu's feature directorial debut. And along with that, she was a first time writer. And she faced many challenges in maintaining her vision of the film. Studios that saw potential in her script wanted to make it like My Big Fat Greek Wedding. She was asked to make the characters white so they could cast Reese Witherspoon as well and Ellen Burstyn as her mother.

[00:12:33] That is fucking wild. The heart of this movie is that she's a Chinese American. To me, I just don't understand. I don't understand it. There are so many white movies. Yeah. So what does it hurt to have any of it? Like, why? Why Reese Witherspoon and Ellen Burstyn?

[00:13:00] So you really like the story, but you don't. To me, it's crazy that there are some white people who cannot see themselves in any other. Like, there's no other. Like, the stories aren't relatable because they're not white. Like, somebody would have to explain that to me because so many other marginalized people do it all the time. Stories are stories.

[00:13:26] Like, when you're reading a book, you can imagine the character any way that you really want to. Right. So why? Why? I don't get it. Like, honestly. I don't either. Like, I've never gone into a movie thinking like, oh, I'm not going to enjoy it as much because the people on screen are not the same color as me. You know, like, but I also come from a lens of like, I want to know about other people's

[00:13:55] customs and traditions and the way they grew up because I understand that not everyone grows up the same. Yeah. And to understand that is to have compassion and sympathy for the other people around you that may not be like you. Yeah. Yeah. I, and what, you know, it's also crazy. Like, there's been so many studies proven that even financially, we all do better with like more diversity. Yeah.

[00:14:24] And I think a lot of people think diversity just means color and it's really not. No. It's customs and religion and traditions. And food and culture. Like, it's everything all together. Yeah. At least with this film. Lord Jesus. You're making me hot before we even get into the movie. And it gets worse.

[00:14:48] So then the studio tried to compromise and asked to make the love interest white so that a star like Scarlett Johansson can bring more attention to the film. It's like, okay, okay, you can keep your Chinese heritage, but the person you fall in love with should be white. No. And, you know, like you definitely, we're seeing that right now.

[00:15:12] So what ended up happening is that we started to see some diverse characters and roles, but now there's always like a white default. And that's either if you have a minority as a lead, especially like in a rom-com, their love interest will always be white. Right. It's very rare that you see two, like a POC and a black person or two POCs together as a love interest.

[00:15:40] And then on top of that, there's like mixed, you know, if, for example, to all the boys I loved before or the summer I turned pretty, they really fought the creator on that to make, make the characters white at first. And then they had to make them half white to just like even get that done.

[00:16:03] And, you know, she had to fight Lakeld to cast like a full Asian girl in, in the role of, to the, all the boys for LJ. So even today they're, they're doing that kind of stuff. It's insane. Well, despite further proposals for script changes, Wu maintained that the Mandarin dialogue, lesbian romance, and her involvement as both writer and director were non-negotiable. And I love that for her. Yes.

[00:16:33] Yes. Ten toes down. And so even though she, ten toes down, she did have some casting problems and challenges because it was difficult for her to find Mandarin speaking actors. But she felt like the film really needed to be bilingual in order to make it authentic and believable, which I agree. Like that is a realistic thing that to this day, I'll go to some pockets of New York or even Miami down here.

[00:17:02] And they're looking at me crazy for speaking English. I was like, Oh, okay. Got it. But one of my favorite parts of this movie is like, like just the translation of what they're talking about. It's like, Oh, old people just like to gossip. No matter like what the culture is. We're just talking about everyone out here. Yeah. Harshly. Harshly.

[00:17:30] You know, sometimes I wish my grandma did speak another language because I mean, she, she doesn't speak Patois really, but it would be nice so that she wouldn't say embarrassing things. At least no one would understand that she's throwing shade. Yeah. Well, because she was not a native Mandarin speaker and the film required natural comedic timing.

[00:17:57] Wu allowed Krucik's character to respond to her mother's Mandarin in English, which the director writer said is a very first generation American thing to do. So I didn't know that she didn't speak Mandarin. That's interesting. Will was made to only speak in Mandarin when she wants to elicit a response from her mother.

[00:18:21] Before production began, Michelle Krucik was flown out to Taiwan for three months to talk, to take an immersive Mandarin course. I wonder if she kept it up years later. Like if she actually, cause I feel like I would want to. This movie is Lin Chen's first feature film and Michelle Krucik's first lead role, as well as like we said multiple times, Alice Wu's, you said directorial debut. Yep. Yeah.

[00:18:52] At her first audition, Lin Chen played Vivian simply as a friend of Will's in the vending machine scene because she did not have access to the script and was therefore unaware that it was a lesbian romantic comedy. She returned to audition four more times, once with Michelle Krucik before securing the role of Vivian Hsing. Well, let's get into it. Okie dokie.

[00:19:18] So when the movie opens, we're introduced to Wilhelmina Peng, Will for short. She's very successful. She's the surgeon. But you can tell she like has her life like very compartmentalized. Like there's her familial traditional life. There's her like friends in the building life. And then there's her dating life that we find out a little bit later more about. Yeah.

[00:19:47] But she's very stringent on what she does and does not really allow those lives to cross paths ever. Yeah. And I would have to say with a lot of my Asian American friends, this is true to how their dynamics have, that I've seen. You know, like when we were growing up, I'm obviously knew your parents, met your parents. Yep. It was like a totally different situation.

[00:20:15] I don't think I even met Shatima's mom until we went to Thailand. And that was like by accident. And at first I was like, are you hiring me? Yeah. But it was more about just like her relationship with her mom and that dynamic.

[00:20:33] So we see Will goes to a salon where her mom works and they're having a conversation about a get together in Flushing that evening. And it's just kind of, it feels like a community event that happens every so often where they all just get together, eat food, dance, socialize.

[00:20:59] And so they go to that and then it's just, it's Will's grandma and grandpa are there and they seem like the elders of the community. Like very well respected. I think that a lot of different communities, especially you'll see in some movies where a lot of the immigrant communities would come together and they had the dances so that you still had ties to back home.

[00:21:26] So I'm thinking it looked like it was like a community center that they were having it at. And it looks like the grandpa is like the head guy in charge essentially. So yeah. HSBC Yeah. And then it is what you expect from, from parents in general, just like, oh, have you met so-and-so's son? Go dance with him.

[00:21:53] Like trying to, trying to get you set up with a guy because how can you be a woman and successful and not have a husband? Right. And what's crazy is that we find out later that Ma essentially knows that Will is a lesbian, but that it's almost like when she found that out inadvertently, that's when she started to push her to go to these dances. Yeah.

[00:22:23] And Will doesn't try to fight it at all. She just, like, it's like she's been trained to do what she's supposed to, like be the top of her class, be a doctor, be a great surgeon. And she just finds this to be one of her responsibilities. But I just always wondered, like, how long she was going to do that for. Yeah. Like, was she going to take it all the way to getting married to someone that she didn't? I don't know. Like, I was always curious about that.

[00:22:51] She felt, it felt like she was reserved anytime she had a dance with any of these guys. She was just like being nice, but she always fell back on her, her little friend. Yeah. Which I'm like, is he gay? Maybe. Maybe they're each other's beards. Yeah. But did you, when you were watching this, did you feel a lot of callbacks in your mind to Bend It Like Beckham? Yes.

[00:23:19] Because that's what it gave Tony to me. Yeah. Definitely. And so as Will is kind of making her way around the room, she notices a beautiful woman up in like the balcony talking to an older woman. And she's like, her interest is piqued. Yeah. And her friend. Yeah. He's like, that's my cousin. That's my cousin. And she's like, oh, interesting.

[00:23:47] And then also, this is where we get a lot of the tea. Of just the grandparents and the aunties and the uncles just gossiping, shit talking everyone. There's one guy. Is it her friend that like every time his mom's around, she's like, don't eat the cabbage. It makes you have gas. I don't think so. Yeah. There's a lot of like yelling.

[00:24:13] When we, when she, the mom was at the hairdresser, she was making a deal with some other lady to her sons in finance, trying to get him to be with her. But he's only 5'8". So that was like a deal breaker for Ma. And they, they start dancing and all he, he starts going into some finance bro shit. And she quickly told her friend, like, you better cut in. Yeah.

[00:24:44] ASAP. Oh man. So then we see Will at work again and she's at the vending machine. Her friend is, oh, what's her name? It's Carol's wife. So she, she plays Susan on Friends. Jessica Hecht. And so I was like, oh, Susan, what are you doing here? And you don't have that annoying voice. You were putting on a voice in Friends. Good to know. Does she have an annoying voice?

[00:25:12] Oh, I couldn't stand Susan's voice in Friends. Ah, okay. Yeah. Like it's not as like put on as Janice's voice, but it's definitely like not her regular talking voice. Like in this movie. So Will goes to the vending machine, which is like, seems like it's just in a stairwell, which confused me. Why?

[00:25:37] I just imagine a vending, I've never experienced a vending machine in like this stairwell. I don't think it was a stairwell. I think they were just stairs. I think it was like the, like the floor. Okay. I don't know. Like the, like, it did look kind of dark. I will say that. Like it felt like the emergency stairs to leave the building. Yeah. And the vending machine, I hadn't seen a vending machine like that in a long time. A long ass time.

[00:26:05] But in this scene, I crack up because one, Will, why are your pants so big? Like I understand scrubs being a little bit big, but she starts digging around in her butt area. And I'm wondering if she has like another pair of pants with a pocket. That was my question because your mom's a nurse. Does she wear regular clothes under her scrubs? That's what I always assumed was the scrubs were the clothes.

[00:26:35] Maybe you wear like a long, long sleeve shirt or something underneath it. But I, I was like, okay. Cause at first I'm like, it just does her asshole itch and she's just doing it in the stairwell. And then she's like, oh, are you looking for change? I'm like, that does not look like I'm digging around for change. But does she have another pair of pants on under and she's trying to get to the pocket? She could, if it's like, it was, I think it was winter time.

[00:27:04] So that does make sense. But yeah, I don't know what that scene was about. And I feel like she could have just gone like this and look like she was looking for money. And that would have been sufficient. Or like dropped a quarter and it rolled under the vending machine. And then she's like, fuck, I don't have money now. You know, like something other than digging in your butt.

[00:27:28] I do feel like the chemistry between the two was eh. Yeah. Well, it was just a weird dynamic where Vivian was essentially just judging Will for her choice in snacks. Like, who are you to tell me what type of snack I can have after a 15 hour surgery?

[00:27:52] Look, the thing that got me, just my personal feelings, like why I started to get annoyed with both of them, is that Vivian was very needy. And Will was too passive aggressive for me. Yeah. So like, I just thought about like me dating. I would be annoyed. Say what you're going to say. Yes.

[00:28:21] And girl, relax. Like, I'm glad you came out to your parents and they cool. My mama isn't. And you know how our background is. Like, you know how hard it is. Yeah. So, yeah. And it doesn't, Vivian's grandparents are never mentioned because Wilhelmina is not only kind of conflicted about her mom's judgment, but it's also her grandparents' judgment.

[00:28:47] And you can tell from that, like, banquet scene, her grandmother is cool with whatever. She's just like, she wears sensible shoes. She dresses comfy. Why are we bothered? Where the mom's like, where's your heels? You dress in, just in jeans and a t-shirt. Like, what's going on? Be presentable.

[00:29:09] But I, I resonated with this probably even more now, that dynamic than I did even back then. Because the reason that Will's mom is like that is because her grandma was like that to her mom. But when you're the grandchild, your grandma's like, oh, get whatever you want. And, you know, just how me and Nana are. And mom is like, nag, nag, nag, nag, nag, nag, nag.

[00:29:38] And of course she could sit back and be like, whatever. Because it's the grandchild. But she didn't get this out of nowhere. Now the grandfather is very, very, like, strict. And so here's this woman. She's 48 years old. And so her husband died very young. So she has been, the dynamic has been that she's been raising her daughter living with her parents. Yeah. And you could tell, like, he, he rules with the iron fist, essentially.

[00:30:08] But they're very proud of their granddaughter, regardless. Yes. So one thing we forgot to mention is during the banquet scene, Ma suddenly becomes ill and has to leave. She's not feeling well. Oh, right. Yeah. So then after, like, the meet cute at the vending machine, we come, Ma is, like, sitting on the stoop.

[00:30:32] Well, no, Will goes to, Vivian is a dancer, so Will goes to one of her performances and gets home late. And Ma is sitting on her stoop with, like, all of her belongings. And is, like, where have you been? And Will's just, like, out with friends. Like, why are you sitting here? Why are you here? Meeting for me. Not just, like, you got a bunch of shit, too. Yeah. On top of it.

[00:31:01] But I think we missed meeting her neighbor, Randy. Yes, Randy. So she has a. He's behind me. There he is eating chicken. And she has a neighbor across the hall from her, a black man. And they are, like, besties, essentially. And you usually, we usually see them smoking on the roof, like, just talking about stuff.

[00:31:27] So he's, like, a good palate cleanser and supporter to kind of listen to all the craziness. And also, Will doesn't seem to know. She's very aloof about certain dynamics. And so he kind of humanizes certain things where he's, like, bitch, what are we doing? But very, very nice guy. So, yeah, the mom is on the stoop. And she brings her upstairs.

[00:31:53] And you already see the mom starting to take over. Sure. And Ma is crying. Yes. And Will's, like, what's going on? And, like, Ma isn't telling her anything. No. And then how does she find out? So Ma goes into the bedroom, turns on music, and she's acting all disheveled and shit. And she's, like, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. The music is loud. The phone rings. She answers the phone.

[00:32:23] It's her grandma. And her grandma's just talking about it's best that she stays with you until, you know, her health isn't going to be well. And there's also clues about her health because there's a guy who does, like, herbs and reads fortunes and stuff like that and said that she was going to have a rocky year with her health. So we do get that glimpse. And so then the grandma's, like, yeah. And the daughter's, like, wait, what do you mean her health? Like, what's going on? She's pregnant.

[00:32:52] And she can't come home until she got her husband. Wait, what? So she's, like, mom, you're pregnant? Like, what the fuck's going on? And then she's, like, who's the father and the mom? And she's, like, every time immediately changes the subject. Like, will not answer anything. So, yeah. I'm like, is this my autobiography?

[00:33:19] Because I was, like, she's pregnant. So I just thought that was an even cooler dynamic to add to just a layer to the story. So you both have the mom and the daughter going through big life changes at the same time. Mm-hmm. And like you said, Ma immediately starts, like, redecorating the apartment. Like, you should do this. You need a lamp here.

[00:33:48] You need curtains here. And poor Will is just like, okay. Yeah. She doesn't even fight it. She's just like, whatever you want, Mom. Sometimes it's easier not to fight. You want those curtains, Mom? No problem. Let's see where we are now. We are introduced to, is it Little U that works at the subway station? Yes.

[00:34:17] Because his dad is the one who does, like, the fortunes. So every time she, Will is going back and forth at the train station, he is providing herbs and stuff for her. To get married. To get married. But then once the mom moves in, it's like he already knows. And so he's giving herbs to the mom. Yeah. And he's like, oh, these are from my dad. And so. Yeah. And it seems like this is kind of like the decoy.

[00:34:46] It's like, it kind of seems like he's into Will. Right. And so, and that's why he's so persistent about giving her all these marriage herbs. And she just is always like, my train's here. She said that like five times in the movie. My train's here. I gotta go. Yeah. She's not about none of that. It's also to be noted that Stephen, his name. Her boss's name is Stephen.

[00:35:14] And like we see a scene of him talking about how like she'll be over the department by the time she's 40 or 30 or something like that. So it's good to note that at this, we later find out he is actually Vivian's dad. Because Vivian keeps showing up at the hospital. I'm like, why is she always there? She's just hanging out. Yeah. She does say that she's there to see her dad, but it makes it seem like he's a patient. Yes.

[00:35:41] And when we talk about like all the rumors and the gossip, one of the things is that Vivian's mom just, you know, got a divorce from her dad. And he is with a woman like way younger. And so like that causes some drama as well. Yeah. So we see a ma is essentially shunned by the community because how dare she have a baby at 48 out of wedlock. Yeah.

[00:36:10] And so she's just holed up in Will's apartment. She does go to the local video store and she's like asking for Chinese movies. And it's like, he points her to this little section and it's a bunch of copies of The Last Emperor. And then there was another. It was like a few classics and then it starts to get into porn territory. And then she's just like.

[00:36:42] What I love is that she gets it. Yeah. But she's watching like a lot of different Chinese dramas and stuff like that. The funny thing is that Joan Chen, the actress who plays Ma, was in The Last Emperor. So she starred in that movie. So that was like a little nod. She is. She's a huge thing. Honestly, if you look at her now, she still looks gorgeous. Like aging like fine wine. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

[00:37:09] So and then we get these kind of like scenes where Will and Ma are together watching these movies. And then eventually Randy gets in on it too. And so they'll all just be sitting on the couch watching like these Chinese action movies and stuff. I love that they eventually like, you know, embrace him. But like the first time he comes into the house, there's like a few things. Like he doesn't take his shoes off.

[00:37:39] The mom starts talking in Chinese. She's like, she says some derogatory things about him being black and dark skin and eating too much toys. Like all these things. And so it's just like, what the fuck? But it's not like I was shocked. But it's not like I was shocked. You know, there's obviously a huge anti-black sentiment across the board. So but later on, she does warm up to him.

[00:38:05] She is nicer to him and they become like a little group. Yeah. Side note, my one of my old bosses, he was half Vietnamese and his mom would come over and make Vietnamese egg rolls. And they were fantastic. And apparently she told my boss, oh, yeah, Jackie eats a lot of egg rolls. Oh, I was like, oh, OK. Like you made like 80 of them.

[00:38:34] I didn't think like I had to limit my egg rolling. It's it's always like, look, here's the thing. It's always love through food. Yes. They make a ton of food. And so they're like, eat, eat. And if you but you it's almost like in so many of these cultures, you have to say, no, it's OK to be polite. You have to say no at least two to three times. And then you can say yes. But you can't eat too much because then you'll be like, you fat. You eat too much.

[00:39:04] You know, like that becomes a problem. So there's a balance. There's like a game you have to play. And I know the game. I just like egg rolls. There's so many cultures like this. It's kind of insane. So I feel like it prepared me to go to other cultures and be like, no, it's OK. Or just remembering what my grandma drilled into my head. You have to say please and thank you and just be very polite and very quiet and just. Yeah.

[00:39:34] So it's always interesting when you are your immigrant child and then you you like first bring your American friends, your white American friends. And you're like praying that your white American friends act right. Like, I really didn't try to invite people over really too much because I already knew. I didn't want to deal with it.

[00:40:01] And if they thought something wasn't right or they were offended by something, then I'll never be able to hang out with that friend. So the best thing was just like, yeah, my house is not the place to be. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. So we see Will and Vivian start spending more time together. They meet in the park for hot dogs. Like ate a lot of hot dogs in this movie. And I'm like, Vivian is a dancer.

[00:40:32] She's an active dancer. She's on break. She's doing modern now. So she doesn't have to do that. But I'm sure modern, you still have to keep it. I'm sure it's not a strict diet, a hot dog diet. She's getting her protein in. I don't know. And there was never any ketchup on it or a mustard or anything. It's just a plain dry dog in a bun. Ew.

[00:40:57] But they, they evolve their relationship through like just sitting in the park and talking. And again, food, even though it's Americanized food, still bonding over like food rituals. And then we find out Vivian mentors kids. So sometimes she's like at the park with the kid she's mentoring. She was teaching them how to fall without hurting themselves. Yeah.

[00:41:25] I think like in ballet, when you're doing stuff, you know, it's good to learn. Like if you are, like when you're trying to do the periets or whatever, maybe learning how to fall so you don't hurt yourself. Yeah. So, but that scene was so weird because Will, because so they're at Vivian's house. And it seems to be like their first day alone. Yeah.

[00:41:49] And so Vivian, you know, showing off her apartment and she's telling her about falling. And so she's telling Will to fall and Will's not falling. So when Vivian approaches to try to like kiss her, that's when she fake falls. Yeah. And Vivian is like, whatever I want, I'm gonna get it. And she's pretty aggressive about how she goes after Will.

[00:42:19] Well, and we find out that like they had met as children. And something had happened and Will had stuck up for Vivian and Vivian had kissed her then.

[00:43:00] Yeah. You know, she's dealing with stuff with her mom. Obviously, they're not in a place where she could be like authentically herself. And she's also working. She's a surgeon. So she's constantly in the hospital. And so it just feels like that. What's her name? Sorry. I want to say. No, the other one. Vivian. Sorry. I wanted to say Veronica for some reason. Okay. So it feels like Vivian is getting crumbs. So it's her birthday.

[00:43:28] Will has promised to come out. This is her first time meeting Vivian's friends. And then work is just slammed. She gets crazy. But there's a dynamic layer to it because Vivian's father is a surgeon. So she has probably, it's literally like she's dating her dad. Right. Talking about daddy issues. Vivian is taking this break and doing modern dancing.

[00:43:53] But she is a ballerina for the New York Metropolitan Ballet, I think. I'm not sure. But she's taking a break from that. And her dad is really pushy about her being this like prima donna ballerina. Yeah. And she has a potential opportunity in Paris to dance in Paris. Right. So that's kind of like in the back of her mind, like do I pursue modern dance, which I love? Right.

[00:44:22] Or do I do what my dad wants me to do and take this opportunity in Paris if it presents itself? Right. We also, I think we missed one of the times Will was out with Vivian. Ma was hosting a Mahjong night. Right. And she wanted Will to come and Will missed it. And so Ma was just like, oh, it was fine. Don't worry about it. Blah, blah, blah.

[00:44:49] Well, then turns out later towards the end of the movie in the third act, Will is at the salon where Ma used to work. And everyone's talking about how like they didn't make it to Mahjong night. And they're laughing about how no one showed up. Yeah. And so Will is like sad that she wasn't there to comfort Ma and all of that. And it's just conflicted. Like she's just being pulled in so many different directions.

[00:45:20] Yeah. Also, like the mom is going through her own things because she's trying to figure out is she going to keep the baby or what. So Will finally realizes I got to get my mom hitched because she's not going to get out of my house unless she's married. Like my grandpa's not grandparents are going to accept her back in the house and she can't live with me. So she starts lining this lady up with dates. And I love the scene where they're in the bathroom and the mom is like having a crisis about like, I can't date.

[00:45:49] I can't be out with these people. I don't have anything to wear. What do I look like? Like, and then the mom comes out in these banger outfits looking bad as hell. And these dudes are awful. I'm like, y'all couldn't find no cute guys. But, you know, she had to find men that were going to be okay with accepting that she's pregnant. And I love how they have a conversation. Like, when should I tell them I'm having the baby? Second date. Second date. Second date.

[00:46:13] And the grandfather has decided that the mom is going to marry this one man that's been obsessed with Ma for years. And he got real handsy in that hallway scene. He really did. And I was like, I'm not about this. I don't like this man. He seemed sus. And he was just like, there's one thing about being like, okay, yeah, you're pregnant and accepting that. But he was like, overly eager.

[00:46:42] And he's like, well, I don't have children. So I'll be the father to your child. Like, immediately. And I'm like, you didn't even take a beat to like, think through this. He's been thirsting over this lady since 1985. He's like, I don't care. She got 80 kids. Is she going to be mine? And he says it. Like, one of the first scenes, the dance. He tells his homies, because they're all like, well, I still got a chance to have a baby.

[00:47:11] And they're like 50 years old. They're like, oh. But he was like, no, she going to be mine. We going to be together. And he does treat her well. He does show up. Because a little bit later on, grandma falls ill and she's in the hospital. And it's just Vivian and grandpa, because grandpa has shunned Ma and is not speaking to her.

[00:47:35] And when Vivian goes in to talk to grandma, the doctors are like, we're very hopeful that she'll get to go home. Yeah. And stuff. She just has to stay for a day or two while we run tests type thing. And ultimately, grandma ends up passing away. And so. That's when the mom. Ma. Yeah. That's when Ma shows up.

[00:47:57] And then grandpa is grieving so much that Ma and her new man friend, like he shows up at the hospital to help and they help escort grandpa out. And I think that's kind of the turning point for Ma. Like, at least he's stable. He shows up. Right. Because he brought the grandpa, he brought them to the hospital when grandma was sick. And grandma was like, I'm fine. And she tells her granddaughter, do not tell your mother.

[00:48:26] Like, this is not a big deal. I don't want to stress her out. And then her coming. I don't want her turned away by your grandfather, like to be a whole thing. But then the mom ends up being mad at her daughter because her mom dies and she didn't tell her that she was sick. Right. Also, the other dynamic that happens is when she finds out about her grandma and rushes out to go see about her grandma. She is with Vivian.

[00:48:48] So Vivian worried comes to the hospital and it's Vivian's dad that is telling them about what's going on with the grandma. So he's like, why are you here? Yeah. Dad picks it up like that. Well, because Vivian's parents already know that she's a lesbian. Yeah. And so dad's like, oh, you're dating Will. You're the one holding Will back from, I mean, Vivian from going to Paris.

[00:49:15] So he kind of just like, if you love, like, do you love her? I don't like how Will is just, she doesn't have, it almost makes it feel like she doesn't have strong feelings for Vivian in the same way. But I think she just has trouble expressing it.

[00:49:32] And that's because I think if you can't be your full self to the person you're closest with, the person you love your most, which is your mother, then it does make it really hard to like be open and vulnerable in a relationship on top of that. So she decides what's best for Vivian is for her to like end things, especially after her grandma dies. Like she's like, this shit is too complicated. And now I have to be here for my mom and my mom's not talking to me.

[00:50:01] It's like too much. Yeah. And then a ma decides to marry that man. I don't even know his name. I don't, I just, I, I sure we should look it, look it up, but yes, he's Mr. Hansy for sure. So I'm like, it's a fairly large wedding. It's not just like shotgun, let's go to the JOP and get this done.

[00:50:30] It's like, she's got, Ma's got a wedding dress there. That's because the dad is HBIC. Like everybody in the community is going to show up and the gossip, like she pregnant. He like, it's messy. And the daughter is, so Will's not going to the wedding because her mom's pissed at her. And her again, bestie from across the hall is like, yo, you need to go to the wedding. That's your mom.

[00:50:58] She gets another envelope from Mr. Trainman the day before. And so she just, she goes in her backpack. The only reason she opens it because it broke. So she's like, oh shit. She opens it and there's like a four page letter in there. And she's reading it. And it's like, you didn't marry the person you wanted to marry the first time around. Like you didn't marry for love. I think we should be together. I know the age difference is crazy, but it don't matter. I want to be with you. That's my baby.

[00:51:28] Like don't marry that man. And so Will's like, oh my God, mom is in love with old you, who is her grandfather's bestie. So she runs and she stops the wedding. And this scene and what happens after is like a complete parallel or like an homage to the graduate. So she goes and she stops the wedding. And she's like, you don't love him.

[00:51:55] And she tells the grandpa, like he, she loves somebody else. She loves old you. And old you's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Fake news. It ain't me. What you doing, girl? And then young you stands up and is like, baby, baby, please. So she, the mom's like, oh shit. And everyone's like, good on you, mom. He's a good looking man. He is.

[00:52:24] He's a good man, Savannah. But the funniest part is that after this, these bombshells are released. Everybody in the hall starts snitching on each other and telling their shit about their lives. I don't know. My favorite was the couple where the guy's like, if you're going to divorce me, then just divorce me. And she's like, I love you, your old dog fart.

[00:52:52] Yes, the translation was very interesting with that one. Amazing. I was like, going to use that. So now. Cat's out of the bag. Cat's out of the bag. And at some point, was it, it must have been before this where Will officially comes out to her mom. And she's like, I need to tell you, I love you. And I am gay.

[00:53:21] And the ma, ma, her response. How can you say those two things in the same sentence? Oh my God. That was so heartbreaking. Yeah. And so now with, on top of all of this, these layers of shit that Will is dealing with, she's dealing with like, my mom is not going to support me. If I'm in a relationship with a woman. So she's like, kind of coming to terms with that.

[00:53:50] And then because of these crazy turns of events, she's like, my, you're judging me when you're dating, like young you over here. And you got knocked up. Like. What's that? What's happening? Yeah. I think once the, once Will stops the wedding and pretty much tells her, like to her, she interprets that Will stopping the wedding means that Will is going to be there for her.

[00:54:20] And she's latching on. Like truly, she's never lived by herself. She went from her parents to her husband, back to her parents. And now she's with her daughter and they, they run onto the bus, just like the graduate, like happy. And then they sit there and she's talking, Ma's talking about all the things they need to do to get ready for the baby. And Will's like, pump the brakes. Yeah. Cause that's not, I'm not, I'm not doing this. Like I'm obviously going to help you, but we're not. You need to be a strong, independent woman.

[00:54:50] Yes. And the mom does ask her what happened to Vivian was pretty. Like she's talking about Vivian and she's like, what happened to Vivian? And she's like, what do you mean? What happened to Vivian? Yeah. And Will's like, what do you mean? Like you reacted so poorly to me being a lesbian.

[00:55:16] Because Vivian begs when they're still together, she begs Will to meet her mom and have dinner with them. And the mom immediately clocks that Vivian is her new boo thing and she is not liking it at all. Yeah. And then there's a scene where I think it was right after Will broke up with Vivian that she, Vivian was very thirsty and just called and kept leaving messages on the machine.

[00:55:45] Like it's the scene behind you. Yes. They're like watching a movie and it's just like, Hey, well, I'm on my way to, to perform. Hey, well, I'm in rehearsal. Hey, well, I'm getting ready to go on stage. Like if it's just like call after call, I'm like Vivian girl, you are way too pretty to be doing this. Way too pretty.

[00:56:11] But, you know, even when she misses her birthday because she's late and she sent flowers and it's like I said, she was dating her father essentially because there's also a, when she opens her door, there's more roses because they're in there. Exactly the same because her dad sent it because he missed her birthday as well. And, but you know, some, some good sex. All is forgiven. All right. All is forgiven.

[00:56:40] So now she, from the coverage of her mom, she realizes she's got to go at least try to stop Vivian. So she goes to the airport, which is funny that you could hear the director's voice in the scene of her being, she's like on the overhead as she's in the airport. I'm looking at the airport and it's the old TWA section of the air of, I think JFK. And so I'm like, oh, memories.

[00:57:09] And then she tries to go after Vivian and Vivian's like, no, homie, you're, you're still not ready. Like you kiss me right now in front of everybody. And she says she loves her when she walks away, but like, she still has not, she's not able to express it publicly. And so Vivian leaves and we kind of see things fast forward. I'm not even sure how much time has gone by. I don't think the baby is born yet. So no, she's still pregnant. Yeah.

[00:57:38] But we're at another one of those social gatherings. I'm assuming like a month or two later. Yeah. And Will is going through the motions, being introduced to men that she's has no interest in. And then he looks across the dance floor and Vivian is there with her mom. And, and Vivian is pissed because she's like, ma, you told me she hasn't been coming to these things. Right.

[00:58:08] The only reason why I'm here. And her mom's like, she hasn't been. I don't know why she's here. And so Vivian, I'm sorry, Will walks over to Vivian and is like, would you like to dance? And Vivian's like, no. And you're just like, oh, yeah, make her work for it. Yeah. And then Vivian takes a beat and then she's like, there's no music playing.

[00:58:34] And so then they start dancing even before the next song starts playing. And they're kind of like in their own little love bubble. And Vivian says like everyone's staring at us and, and Will's like, fucking let them like whatever. And then they kiss and that is saving face. All right. Well, let's see what fun facts we have.

[00:59:02] Like you asked, Saving Face was filmed on location in New York's Flushing, Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan on 35 millimeter film. And it's featuring the New York City Chinese American community. The film features in a mixture of Mandarin Chinese and English. And when you were asking about the, the park, so the New York City parks do not have a designated maple leaf park.

[00:59:31] But the famous NYC parks logo features stylized, a stylized leaf of a mix of a maple and a London plain tree. Maples are widely planted across the city and turn brilliant colors during the autumn. So interesting. Yeah. I usually see them kind of everywhere.

[00:59:50] And Teddy Z helped Wu get the establishing shot she wanted by allowing Saving Face's camera crew to tag along on a helicopter shoot for Will Smith's Hitch, which was filming at the same time. And like we said, Will Smith's production company was involved in this movie. So in an interview, because we've seen many interviews years later of the entire cast, I think they did a Zoom not too long ago, maybe during 2020, where they surprised Alice Wu.

[01:00:19] The entire, the three main leads surprised her and they were talking. One of the things that Alice Wu did say on that Zoom was, you know, she kind of thought that the movie would have been at least a breakthrough for the Asian American, the Asian American actors to have bigger roles after the movie came out. And she said they've all, you know, carved out their own lane.

[01:00:48] Both Michelle and, well, Joan Chen was already directing, but they started to direct, Michelle and Lynn started directing afterwards. But she said that was like one of the biggest disappointments for her after the movie was, you know, did pretty well and was like a considered a breakthrough.

[01:01:09] And also she directed the movie and wrote the script several years earlier while working as a program manager at Cinemania and Music Central, Microsoft CD-ROM entertainment department. Ooh, fancy. I know. Alice met Teddy Zee, who is the president of Will Smith's production company, Overbrook Entertainment at Cape.

[01:01:33] Zee described the process as an awakening for me about the Asian American experience in Hollywood because I was always such a part of the studio system. Every day there are actors coming in who are Chinese American who don't get an opportunity except to play prostitutes or waiters. And if you want to go back, we did an interview with Kayla Yu who wrote a book about called Fetishized.

[01:02:01] About Asian American women or Asian women in film and their experiences getting roles and being fetishized by American culture. So you can look, we'll put that link in the show notes if you want to go back and listen to that interview. And Cape is a coalition of Asian Pacifics in entertainment.

[01:02:25] And so the script won at the Cape in 2001 and she won the Screenwriting Award. And the script was inspired by Alice's own experience of coming out. And that one led to the script being produced. And that's where she met Tedizzi. She also talks about the fact that on that same Zoom that she made the movie for her mother. You know, because at first it was Rocky, but then her mom became one of her biggest supporters.

[01:02:55] And they were even talking about like what it would be like, where their characters would be now, years later. And when they do a sequel, Alice was very against a sequel. She feels like the movie really told a specific story. And the only reason she would ever do a sequel is if they were telling a very important different story. So like, yeah, get that.

[01:03:22] And Alice Wu can be seen in the heard and seen in the movie. She is the flight announcer's voice in the airport scene and the woman eating an apple on the bus. And in an interview with Asians on film, Michelle Krucik mentioned that although Saving Face did not make a dramatic impact on Hollywood through the box office, the film has remained relevant through its staying power.

[01:03:48] Saving Face has continued to be screened at festivals such as San Diego Asian Film Festival in 2019 and the 30th Annual San Francisco International Asian American Film Festival in 2012. And Joan Chen said, I was always this tragic woman and Alice gave me the opportunity to play in a comedy. In a lot of the movies that I did before Saving Face, I had a dark period where I played a lot of awful roles in films like On Deadly Ground and Judge Dredd. But I really felt like I wasn't being authentic.

[01:04:18] And so Saving Face came along and gave me the opportunity to get the authenticity that I was craving for. One of the other movies that I loved that was on the shelf when she went to the video store was Joy Luck Club. Yes. And I always felt like, you know, when we started having conversations about Crazy Rich Asians when that came out, it had been so long since they had a movie with an all Asian cast like that.

[01:04:46] And it pretty like on that scale. And the last time was the Joy Luck Club. I think that was the thought that when that movie came out, it was going to open so many more doors than it did. And that always made me really sad because I read the book and watched the movie and it's just such, such a good movie. It's outside of our time frame. And honestly, I'd just be too sad to like talk through it.

[01:05:16] Yeah. If you haven't seen Joy Luck Club, I don't know what rock you've been under, but you should definitely watch it and read the book too. It's good. Michelle Krusik said in an interview that her nude love scene with Lin Chen only took about 20 minutes to shoot, but the anxiety leading up to it was much longer. She said, I was pretty nervous because I wasn't sure what to expect. Both Lin and I did a good job of trying to keep things calm and casual, but you could feel an undercurrent of nerves.

[01:05:44] We did a couple of takes and planned out some basic movements, but what you see on screen is pretty organic. In between takes, we would just lay there and chill. And Michelle also said that in an interview in 2005, that her mom had no problem with her playing a lesbian in the movie, but if she actually were gay, she wouldn't handle it very well or understand because being gay is one of the biggest taboos in Chinese culture.

[01:06:13] Well, it's crazy, but it's still so very taboo for so many different cultures to this day. Anywho, before we get into our today ratings, just one reminder guys to make sure you're checking us out at NoMoreLateFees on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, and Threads. And don't forget to leave any questions or commentary. You could also leave a comment on our Spotify account as well.

[01:06:44] All right, Jackie, what is your current day rating? I really enjoyed it. I would say five-day rental. It hits you in all the right feels. Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it's a five-day rental for me too. I definitely could see myself going back and watching it, re-watching it. And if you have any commentary on this movie or anything, any other previous movies that we've done, hit us up at our quick drop.

[01:07:14] You can call us or text us at 909-601-6653 and you can be featured on a future episode. And next week we're continuing on with Pride Month with Angelina Jolie's Gia. Haven't seen that one in a while, so that's good. I really, I am looking forward to that. And as always, be kind and rewind.

[01:07:49] Very good, very good, very good. Very good? Wieso Steuer ist sehr gut? Das sagen ganz viele. Cool, wer sagt das? Stiftung Warentest, Computerbild, Focus Money, Chip, Finanztip, such dir was aus. Mega, aber das ist doch bestimmt kompliziert. Nö, einfach Foto von der Lohnsteuerbescheinigung machen und fertig. Klingt sehr gut. Ist sehr gut. Hol dir dein Geld zurück mit Wieso Steuer.