Ep. 28 - The Fourth War (1990)

[00:00:00] It's showtime, folks! It's on Bad Hat, Harry. What was the weight of the car when you got it, uh? You're not right or wrong. You just don't care. Fenway! Oh, sons of bitches. I didn't know. I didn't know. Hello and welcome to Episode 28 of The Complete Works Season 4,

[00:00:26] a deep dive into the career and films of actor Roy Scheider. My name is Mike Smith and joining me on this journey across the Scheiderverse is my friend, co-host, and fellow Roy Boy, Mike DiCreccio. How are you doing today, Mike? I'm doing just great. It's another exciting day here in the Scheiderverse. I feel like we're some near misses, you know? Just to say, just up front. Just some personal, like you're looking at a poster and a brief thing and you're like,

[00:00:54] oh, this is, here we go, my personality for the next week, let's go. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I was just, uh, this episode just came out as of this recording, but I was just editing our episode on Night Game. Yeah. Where that, I think, perfectly fits into what you're describing, Mike. Where it's like, okay, baseball slasher movie. Roy Scheider's the detective. Let's go! We got this! And then you watch it and it's like, okay, yeah, maybe this isn't as good as I was promised just based on the synopsis, based on the elements that were here.

[00:01:22] Uh, I think today's movie also kind of fits into that category. Exactly. I'm watching, I'm watching the opening credits and we'll get into it, but I'm watching the opening credits and you're just like, yeah, it's like slowly sitting up more and more with each name. Yes. And you're like, this is it. And then it's whatever. We'll find out. You got to latch on to like the other, like the Cohen and Tates that you've discovered through this podcast. You know, that's the thing. The stuff that I have no expectation for. Uh, and it just blows me away. Yes.

[00:01:49] As opposed to something like this, which is not bad necessarily. No. Yeah. But we'll, we'll talk about it in a sec. A little while back, Mike, we talked about a movie called 52 pickup on this podcast. One of those movies I'd never heard of that blew me away. And we're like, yeah, let's go. Yeah. You were a big fan of that one. And that of course is a 1986 thriller produced by Canon films starring Roy Scheider and directed by John Frankenheimer. And today we've got a 1990 thriller produced by Canon films starring Roy Scheider and directed by John Franken.

[00:02:15] Uh, after 52 pickup was released and disappointed at the box office, Frankenheimer continued to go make dead bang released in 1989, which of course might do your big dead bang guy. Do you want to watch Don Johnson kill Nazis? Watch dead bang. There you go. Uh, also a Christmas action movie, which is fun. I have not seen dead bang yet. And, uh, well, there's, there's a very, there's our December pick for. There you go. Yes. No, put that on the list. Absolutely.

[00:02:44] Uh, after that, uh, he decided to tackle some subject matter. That was all the rage in eighties action films. And that of course is the cold war. Uh, and here's the thing. One of John Frankenheimer's best known movies is also a cold war thriller. That of course is the Manchurian candidate, uh, from 1962, which have you seen the original Manchurian candidate Mike? I actually have not. Oh man. It's terrific. It's a, it's really, really great. Uh, I've already locked in your Mike makes Mike watch this, so I can't add that one to it, but a high recommend checking out Manchurian candidate.

[00:03:14] If you get a chance, I've actually never seen the remake, the Tony Scott version. Right. Uh, which I'm seeing that one either. Oh really? That feels like when you would have watched, I feel like you would have been all about the Manchurian candidate remake as a, as a Scott head. I panicked halfway through that word. I don't know why. Sorry. Um, yeah, as a big Tony's got fan, I don't know why I never saw that. I don't know. Yeah. But anyway, uh, so yeah, Manchurian candidate, one of Frankenheimer's best movies, one of his best known.

[00:03:40] Uh, but by the time you get to the eighties, you're approaching the end of the cold war and it's a very different era from the sixties. Uh, in the sixties, you have movies like Dr. Strangelove or fail safe and the eighties cold war thrillers were movies like red dawn and Rocky four, just big action movies where the American hero wins in the end. We're also now in a post Vietnam era and a lot of movies are kind of reckoning with that idea, including first blood, which I'd argue this movie is really drawing a lot from. Uh, and since, uh, do you disagree Mike?

[00:04:10] No, a lot of things clicked. Okay. It's like, Oh, okay. Uh, well since Roy Scheider is in today's picture, we've got to talk about the fourth war. Somewhere in Eastern Europe, a battle is about to begin. It's not East versus West. Look, it's the fact they're making a run for it.

[00:04:41] Nor us against them. No sir. What else needs ya? It's two proud heroes with no one left to fight, but each other. It's different though, Jack. Things have changed and you better change too. I've learned to play on the white keys and the black keys. Now I'm expected to play in the cracks.

[00:05:09] Colonel Knowles crossed that border because he was looking to get even. Rob him. My name is Jack Knowles. You'll remember that. We usually put this to your Colonel Valachef. men of war. In a time of peace. Good evening. You come over the border one more time. I, personally.

[00:05:39] I will not. Contents who think they have the right private little grudge war when the rest of us are in danger of being turned into French fries. They're fighting for the only thing they have left to believe in. Themselves. Roy Scheider.

[00:06:09] Jürgen Prognal. In a John Frankenheimer film. The fourth war. So Roy Scheider stars in the fourth war as Jack Knowles, a tough soldier who was awarded for his service in Vietnam. His gung ho attitude made him a huge asset during wartime, but it makes him a liability during peacetime. And he gets into. Yeah. Okay, sure. Yeah. He gets into the sort of standoff with the Russian soldier Colonel Valachef, who's played by Jürgen Prognal from Das Boot, which Mike D is a big Das Boot guy.

[00:06:37] Yeah, I'm a big Prognal head. Yes. A big Das Boot guy and a big dead bang guy. Those are your personalities actually. That's my personality. I got to update my top four on Letterboxd. Yes. Just Das Boot twice and dead bang twice. Uh, Tim Reed from WKRP in Cincinnati. He plays Colonel Clark, who's trying to keep Scheider in line. Uh, Laura Harris, who also appeared in The Fisher King and plays Elena. And finally, a guy I'm always excited to see pop up. Harry Dean Stanton. The man.

[00:07:06] He plays General Hackworth, an old friend of Scheider's who also is trying to keep him in line. Uh, you know, Mike, uh, on the way back. So we're recording this in January. Uh, I just went back for the holidays. We recorded our in-person episode for Die Hard and all that stuff. On my flight back to Missoula, uh, I was so exhausted. I had a really rough time getting back home. It's never peaceful for you. It never is. Uh, and on the way back, uh, my first flight was delayed by a few hours and that meant I was missing my connection flight.

[00:07:33] So on this flight from New York to Salt Lake City where I was going to spend the night, I was so exhausted and so beat down. And I was like, you know, normally I would try to watch like, you know, a movie I haven't seen yet, like a 2024 movie I've been meaning to catch up on or something I don't care about too much. I just needed to rewatch like an old favorite. So I watched The Avengers, uh, which was in the, uh, Delta Airlines, uh, flight thing. Uh, and you know what The Avengers has that modern Marvel movies do not, and that's why they're not as good. What's that? It's Harry Dean Stanton.

[00:08:03] I, I, I always forget that Harry Dean Stanton is in The Avengers for like 30 seconds, uh, and he crushes it. He's incredible in that movie. Is he the security guard that finds like the Hulk or somebody? Yeah, the Hulk, uh, Mark Ruffalo has just fallen through the roof. Yes. And, uh, Harry Dean Stanton is the security guard who finds him. Uh, and he asks, oh, are you an alien? Uh, and he's like, no. I was like, well then, son, you've got a condition. I think you're right. That's what it's missing. That's yeah.

[00:08:32] That's the secret sauce that, uh, every Marvel movie since has been missing is that Harry Dean Stanton was in The Avengers and he wasn't in Thor Love and Thunder. And that's why people hate that movie. It's because that's why people hate that movie. It's because Harry Dean Stanton's been dead for six years. Oh man. Uh, in any case, he's in this movie. And, uh, by the way, he crushes it in this movie. A hundred percent. He's incredible in this. We'll talk about that. Uh, the movie was written by Kenneth Ross, who also wrote the day of the Jackal in 1973.

[00:09:01] Uh, and it was directed by John Frankenheimer one year after dead bang and one year before his next film year of the gun, which started Andrew McCarthy and Sharon Stone. Also Bill Conti, uh, did the score for this movie. Bill Conti, of course, famously did the score for Rocky. And, uh, this really feels like a very triumphant Rocky esque score. It kind of doesn't really fit with the movie. Not at all. Yeah. Uh, but it is very fun in that kind of like late eighties fashion. I think. Yeah. It's another one of the opening credits where you're like, yes, let's go baby. This and featuring music by Bill Kyle. Yeah.

[00:09:30] Oh, you know. Yeah. Uh, and then the movie, uh, plays. Uh, the fourth war was released on March 23rd, 1990, where opened a 15th place at the box office. Uh, openings number one that weekend was one of the year's biggest hits. Do you want to take a stab at what it is, Mike? March 1990. Yes. One of the biggest hits of that year. Huge star making performance, uh, from the lead actress. Pretty woman. Yeah, that's it. Hey, nailed it. You got it. I got it. Uh, pretty woman opens number one that weekend.

[00:10:00] Also in the top 10. This is a banger top 10 here. Just acknowledge. I think that's like the only time I've ever gotten in, in all four seasons of the show. I think you're probably right. It might be close. Griffin Newman. You are not. Nope. Uh, also in the top 10 that weekend, uh, the hunt for red October, Joe versus the volcano driving, Miss Daisy house party, Lord of the flies, blue steel, bad influence born on the 4th of July and hard to kill. Hell yeah.

[00:10:29] It's a good top 10 right there. That's a lot of used to have movies, a lot of big movies in that lineup right there. Uh, the IMD plot synopsis for the fourth war reads cold war drama about two gung ho border commanders, Roy Scheider and Jurgen Prock. Now who carry out their own private war against each other on the German Czechoslovakia border. Uh, and actually one also thing to note here, and maybe this, I mean, you know, maybe it's because of the movie itself, maybe because of its timing. But as I mentioned in the top 10 hunt for red October was in there.

[00:10:55] Uh, so it's competing against a much bigger cold war thriller. It's yeah. I mean, and it's crazy that this movie comes in at 15, like it's not 50 or whatever. Um, but I guess that's like, I wonder what the box office total differences are in those between this and the hunt for red October. Like how much money that made just like between number 10 and number 15. Okay. Gotcha. Just cause it's, it's just so funny to think about like the, those caliber movies.

[00:11:24] And then also this one. Yeah. This was also playing in some theaters. Uh, but yeah, fourth war came out in 1990. It's a John Frankenheimer joint. Uh, my D going into this movie, you were, you were set to make this your new personality. Uh, you, you were looking it up at the end of the night game episode and being like, you know what? This is going to be it. This is the, I forgot that I did that, but yeah, I did. You're right. Yeah. Uh, I think I even shouted out like Van Bill Conti, like, Oh man. Uh, so what are your overall thoughts on the fourth war?

[00:11:54] What is this movie? It's really my thoughts. Uh, it's fine overall. I don't think it's like a bad movie, but it is just like an insane premise and insane, uh, anti-war question mark movie. Like, I mean, it is anti-war. Like ultimately it comes down on like the, you know, we'll destroy ourselves thing. It's just fun. I don't know. All the, all the performances are so weird. Everyone is, has this crazy kind of affect on every line they have.

[00:12:23] Uh, and I don't know exactly what it is, but everybody's just sort of like talking like this, like at the air or whatever. Like they all have just, just wild on every line, every, every line. Somebody's like trying to snipe the other person they're talking to. And you're like, I don't think that's really what this conversation is about. Like, uh, so there's that all the action stuff is weird. I mean, it looks cool cause it's John Frankenheimer, right? So like, like when there's all the big explosions and stuff, you're like, hell yeah, let's go.

[00:12:48] There's one insane helicopter stunt at the beginning of the movie where the, you see the tail rotor or the tail, not the actual rotor part, where the tail scrapes the ground in front of the whole cast. But it's there. You're like, what the fuck? Um, so that's crazy. Um, but yeah, overall, I don't know. It's, it's just is a hot mess. There's like kind of, you don't really get to learn anything about Scheider's character, uh, about Colonel Jack Knowles.

[00:13:13] Other than that, he is damaged from Vietnam, which we learn in voiceover from Harry Dean Stanton's character, having a conversation we never get to see. Yeah. Um, just talking about him, uh, and every now and then he comes in to explain what just happened to basically his voiceover as he's retelling this story to somebody we never meet. Yeah, basically, which is weird. So yeah, I don't know. You don't really get to explore or learn more and much about Scheider's character to, to justify why he is so hell bent on what he's doing.

[00:13:42] Other than, I guess you're just supposed to just take it that he's damaged from Vietnam. So this is how he is now. So there's all that. And just overall, yeah, overall, it's just like a big old dud kinda. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's a weird sort of thing. So when he's introduced, like, um, when Roy Scheider shows up for the first time in the movie, uh, he's criticizing a soldier for like saluting wrong. Right. Like, um, and so you're lazy salute. Yeah. And so you're meant to understand like this guy is like pretty, uh, pretty intense about what he does.

[00:14:09] Uh, you know, the Wikipedia page, uh, describes him as like, uh, the same, I said this before, but the same gung ho mentality that made Knowles a hero in wartime makes him a dangerous loose cannon in peacetime. Uh, there's no way to contain this guy, man. He's a, so yeah, he's like sort of impacted by, uh, his experience in the Vietnam war. Uh, but I think he's also just like a dumb guy. Uh, yeah, he's like the dumbest guy on the American side and he's picking a fight with the dumbest guy on the Russian side.

[00:14:39] Uh, and so they have their own like kind of personal war that's happening in the midst of this. I mean, at this point, like we said, the cold war is winding down. Right. Um, so I think people are aware that like, you know, at some point this is going to be over and like, it's, it's kind of like, like the Berlin wall is going to fall at some point and all that stuff. But, uh, yeah. And it's like these two guys who just like, can't let go of the war mentality, I guess, and just kind of take it out on each other. Uh, and then sort of take it out on each other's soldiers, uh, in a weird way.

[00:15:06] And both armies don't seem too concerned about it. I mean, they're both like, both armies are like, you guys got to stop, but they're not like doing anything to make them stop doing. No, no. Yeah. It's sort of like a Dr. Strange love brink brinksmanship thing that they have going on where it's just like, it's inevitable that these two people are going to cause like international incident or, or literally world war three, um, over a snowball fight. Right. Or, or yeah, that's what he throws a snowball at him. Right. And that's how it all starts. Yeah.

[00:15:35] Well, yeah, they, they kill that defector, right? That's the actual incident. They're on patrol at the border. The U S Scheider and his soldiers are on patrol at the border. And he learns that there's this neutral zone thing that the, uh, Czech soldiers are allowed to cross if they're pursuing a defector, but the U S can't cross into the neutral zone. And, and what do you know? It happens while they're all standing right there and they watch these, uh, soldiers chase down, uh, on horseback, chase down a defector and shoot him right at the border.

[00:16:05] He's right there. Right. And, uh, you're going to proc now shows up and it's a talk helicopter. It's crazy. That's what I was talking about. You like, it does this crazy stop thing, uh, stop maneuver where it literally hits the ground with the tail of the helicopter. And it's insane. And it was nice to see Roy Scheider returning to helicopter stunts after, you know, that's right. Lots of, lots of three lines. Proc now is the, like the general or not the general, I guess, but this officer, whatever he, whatever rank he is. Right. And yeah, they, they have some words that they don't understand cause they don't speak English

[00:16:32] or at this point he hasn't revealed he speaks English. Right. And the Scheider throws a snowball at him and he throws a snowball back and actually hits Scheider. Scheider misses and that's it. That's it. Now you're dead to me target acquired. Um, and that's, that's the whole thing for the rest of the movie. Yes. They're insane or Scheider's insane commando raids by himself over this snowball. Yeah. So we also have to mention that, uh, for the first like 40 minutes or so of the movie, it is Roy Scheider's birthday. Uh, yeah, true.

[00:17:02] Yeah, true. And so everything he does is justified. I think is the, yeah, there's no rules on your birthday. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and what's funny, he, he doesn't realize it's his birthday. Until someone like mentions it to him, uh, because he's so wrapped up in his own personal war, this vendetta against this guy. Uh, but then, you know, he's, you know, getting drunk in his room by himself, sort of celebrating his birthday, calling people up or people are calling him and he's like, ah, yeah, whatever, you know, Hey, why don't you have a drink with me? It's my birthday. Yeah.

[00:17:30] And then he eventually like captures enemy soldiers and like makes them sing happy birthday to him. Yeah. He, uh, he drives out to the border and crosses the border into, uh, like to the Czech army base that's there or the outpost or whatever. And yeah, like holds these guys up at gunpoint and makes them sing to him over the radio, over the walkie talkie. So everybody can hear it. And this is whole international incident thing they're doing. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like that that's sort of the, I thought this was going to be like a tense, like,

[00:17:59] I don't know if I'm necessarily like action movie. I would, I wasn't really expecting that. Yeah. But like, you know, maybe a tense political thriller thing with this kind of to the brink tension. And really it's just two dumb idiots doing dumb shit. That's not that interesting. And I guess that's sort of the point, right? Like it is ultimately about the futility of war and all that stuff. So like making them be dumb idiots who are bad or shider at least in particular is a bad father, a drunk, like his ruin, his life is ruined. All this stuff.

[00:18:26] It didn't go to West Point, right? The hits the West Point guy. Yeah. All that stuff. It fits thematically with what the movie's trying to say, but I don't know. It's not that good. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. Well, what do you think? What do you think of Roy Scheider in the film, Mike? As Jack Knowles, as this dumb colonel. I mean, I don't think he's necessarily doing a bad job. I think just maybe the script's not that good. And also, like I said, they're all, he's, he's got this chip on his shoulder.

[00:18:55] I don't need your shit kind of delivery to every line kind of thing. So eventually it gets a little annoying or boring because it's just the same beat. Like he, they don't, they, him and Jurgen Prognath don't learn their lesson until literally the last five seconds of the movie. Yes. And like nothing changes about them until that, those last five seconds of the movie. So it's okay. He's fine. I don't know. I mean, it's not necessarily a bad performance, like I said, but it's just not that engaging or interesting.

[00:19:23] See, I found him to be really fun in the movie actually. Really? Yeah. And honestly, I think what kept the movie together for me, which I think is an ultimately like it's the movie is fine, whatever. Uh, I think ultimately what kept together is that, uh, it is pretty tightly directed. I think John Frankenheimer does a good job, uh, kind of giving you the visual sense of all this. There's some cool action scenes and all that kind of stuff. But also I think that, uh, every performer is pretty locked into it. And Roy Shatter, especially like kind of, I don't know.

[00:19:49] I had a lot of fun watching him act drunk on his birthday, uh, in the first 30 minutes. Uh, and then, yeah, I, you know, it is lifting a lot from something like first blood, uh, which is about this, uh, Vietnam veteran. Who's not really sure of his place in the world anymore. And he kind of snaps and starts, you know, killing people left and right. They drew first blood. Yeah. He drew, they drew first blood. Uh, he Roy Shatter is not as like, I don't know. He's, he's still working within the confines of the army. You know, he's still part of it.

[00:20:19] Uh, he's certainly just doing stuff on his own against the wishes of the United States. However, the United States seems to be doing nothing to get him to stop. They're not sending him home. And he's also, according to the, uh, voiceover from Harry and Stanton at the beginning, I think there's already been an incident and this is his reassignment is to this outpost that like, doesn't really matter. So like they could do more because they've done, we've done nothing and we're all out of ideas basically. What's going on? Yeah.

[00:20:49] But I, I do think he's a lot of fun in the movie. I think you're going to proc now is a, is a good antagonist foil for him. Yeah. Uh, and I do think, uh, the last like, you know, 10, 15 minutes of the movie, I think are genuinely pretty exciting. Um, when, when they finally start to meet face to face and are like fighting each other and it just turns into like a hand to hand combat thing. Uh, like it's the two of them just like duking it out on like this frozen lake. Both sides are like coming out with like tanks and guns and helicopters and they're all aiming right at them as they're just like struggling on the lake fighting together.

[00:21:19] And then that's, yeah, they see, they see the madness around them and they're like, ah, maybe we shouldn't be fighting after all. Yeah. Uh, maybe, maybe war isn't worth it. Yeah. Literally freeze frame. Waiter. I'll have two rupees. Please. That's exactly the end of this movie. Um, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't, I, I think, uh, I think, I mean, Harry Dean Stanton locked in. Oh my God. Yes. Uh, I mean easy MVP of the movie. Uh, you know, he, he shows up a couple of times. He shows up pretty early.

[00:21:48] He's a general who is, I think he goes back a ways with Roy Scheider, right? Like they have sort of a friendship, but, uh, yeah, there's a moment like halfway of the movie when they get wind of what Scheider has been doing and Harry Dean Stanton comes in and does the whole like chewing him out sort of thing. Yeah. And that whole scene is like unbelievable. Uh, Harry Dean stands great. It's like that scene in network. Uh, what's that guy's name? Uh, Peter Finch. No, Ned Beatty, Ned Beatty. Yeah.

[00:22:16] It's like the Ned Beatty scene in network where it's just like comes out of nowhere. Um, it just delivers this incredible monologue and yeah, that scene is great. Yes. And it's, and it's sort of like a little bit against type for Harry Dean Stanton who is often playing like, you know, sort of rough around the edges, dudes or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Like blue collar guys, this guy, an alien or repo man or whatever. Um, so to see him, uh, as like the general of this whole, like whole thing and, uh, him being like the position of authority thing, uh, he crushes it. He's, he's so good in this movie. Yeah.

[00:22:46] Like genuinely, like, I don't know who the best supporting actor lineup from 1990 was, but if it didn't include Harry Dean Stanton in the fourth war, I'm going to look it up right now and see, uh, what the best supporting actor nominees were because I got, I got to imagine what you could swap one of them out for the fourth war. So it's gotta be the 91 Oscars, right? Well, yeah. So it's, well, well, the, not the Oscars that take place in 91 before the films of 1990. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm not, not getting rid of the winner.

[00:23:15] The winner is Joe Pesci and good fellas. Can't should have been Harry. Should have been Harry. It's the fourth war. Uh, otherwise you got Bruce Davison and longtime companion, uh, Andy Garcia in the Godfather part three, uh, Graham green and dances with wolves or Al Pacino and Dick Tracy. Al Pacino got nominated for an Oscar for Dick Tracy. Dick Tracy. Huh? That's a, he's like the guy with the huge nose and Dick Tracy, right? That's like, I don't remember. Everyone's a cartoon in that movie.

[00:23:44] So I don't know which cartoon he is. That's in a incredible that Al Pacino got a nomination for Dick Tracy. I haven't seen that movie since I was like 10, but I remember, I remember really liking it at the time. Have you seen Dick Tracy? I have, but not in decades. Okay. Fair enough. But, uh, in any case, yeah, I would toss. I mean, I've never seen longtime companions. I won't toss Bruce Davison, but Andy Garcia got father three. Come on. Yeah. Okay. Harry and Stanton in there for the fourth war. He's got the pedigree. He could do it.

[00:24:13] Yeah, exactly. I don't think Harry and Stanton was ever nominated for an Oscar actually, which, you know, that would track. Yeah. It makes sense. I mean, he was a, he's a pretty major character actor, like kind of, you mostly did a lot of bit parts and things like that. Uh, however, have you ever seen a lucky from 2017? No. Okay. So lucky was a movie that Harry and Stanton was the lead in. Uh, I think it came out after he died or it was like right before he died. Uh, that movie is incredible. It's, it's really terrific. It's about Harry and Stan.

[00:24:42] It's, it's sort of a spiritual sequel to Paris, Texas and not, not, not a sequel, but like in the, in the similar vein to Paris, Texas companion piece. Yeah, exactly. And Harry and Stanton, uh, stars in it. He's 90 years old. Uh, and it's just about him kind of like coming to terms with his own death and he's trying to, trying to reach some, some sense of enlightenment. There is a scene in the movie, Harry Dean Stanton is best friends with David Lynch. Uh, David Lynch plays like a major supporting role in the movie. Uh, and David Lynch has this monologue about this turtle that he lost.

[00:25:09] Uh, and it's genuinely one of the most affecting things I've ever seen. It's, it's so, so good. Uh, it was directed by, uh, John Carroll Lynch, the Zodiac killer. Um, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Star of Mike and Mike favorite, the invitation. Yes, absolutely. So all I'm saying is if you, if you need to do a deep dive on Harry and Stanton, and I think you should, because he's the one of the best, he would be a great complete works actually. So many movies. That's the problem. I mean, he's got like hundreds and hundreds of movies to get like maybe a hundred and hundreds, but he's in a lot. He's in a lot.

[00:25:38] Um, but you know, I mean just looking at like some of the big ones, you got cool hand Luke, you got Godfather two, you got alien escape from New York, Christine repo man, pretty in pink last temptation of Christ wild at heart. We've covered that one already. Uh, the straight story, the green mile, uh, seven psychopaths, Inland Empire, the Avengers. Yeah. He's in everything. Yeah. Paris, Texas. He's in Rango. Come on. We got to talk about Rango one of these days. So one, one of these days, maybe we'll get to Harry and Stanton.

[00:26:05] That would be, uh, if, if we did a Harry and Stanton season, we would probably never finish it. I don't know. I mean, I, we would finish it, but it would take a very long time. It would take a long time. Uh, in any case, he's phenomenal in this movie. He's the best part of this movie. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Okay. Any other, uh, how do you think this fits into the Roy Shatter roles that we've seen so far, Mike? I'm trying to think what he has other than the helicopter movie. Has he been in a military position? Uh, well, blue, blue thunder. He's not in the military. He's a, he's a cop in that movie.

[00:26:34] I just assumed air force, but yeah, no, he's a cop in that. You're right. Yeah. Um, but I don't think we've seen many army men movies. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't think he's really been in any military, uh, positions actually, or maybe he's had characters that have like a background in military experience or something like that. But yeah, I don't think that, uh, yeah, no kind of just do it on a quick glance. I don't think we've ever seen him play, uh, a military person. So that's new, but it is still the position of authority, right? He's definitely got gray hair in this movie. No shorts. Yeah. It's the winter. Yeah.

[00:27:02] And you're sort of in this kind of like late eighties, early nineties era where, you know, he's making movies that aren't necessarily big hits, but he's, he's making like solid like action thrillers for the most part. Um, and so it kind of fits in with stuff like 52 pickup, which of course is also a Frankenheimer, Cohen and Tate's like that kind of thing. Right? Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, there was that, that couple of year gap, uh, it was between 86 and 89 or whatever, I think. And now he's just like cranking them out. I mean, it's not, it's not like cage levels, but he's cranking them out. Yes.

[00:27:29] Uh, which we, we were kind of looking over our schedule for like the upcoming year for the podcast, uh, or the kind of like at least the next few weeks. Um, but I was like, Oh, how many like upcoming movies does Michelle Yeo have? Uh, two, how many upcoming movies does Jeff Goldblum have one? How many does Nicholas Cage have six? Uh, and just, he just won't let us sleep. Yeah. Remember, remember like a year ago, Nicholas Cage was like, yeah, I think I'm going to retire. I'm going to stop making movies. Uh, I've got a couple more movies on contract that I have to make and then I think I might go to TV. Yeah.

[00:27:58] He's got six movies this year. Plus the TV show. He's doing the Spider-Man noir show. My God. Uh, all right. Any other scenes in the fourth war that you want to give a shout out to Mike? Anything that stands out to you about this movie? There's the scene where he blows up the lookout tower, uh, when he sneaks over the border and, uh, basically just does an act of war. He blows up the tower. They send out the search dogs. He's running through a minefield. Like it's an absolutely insane sequence. Yes.

[00:28:26] And when he evades them, he's just kind of like, ha ha. And like wipes his finger and wipes his hands and walks back across the border. All, all like proud of himself. Uh, you're like, what do you do? What's going on? I don't understand what's happening. Yeah. I mean, there's one moment in the movie where I think you, you hear like a couple of the colonels kind of talking about the stuff that Shider is doing and it's like, okay, well he's been chewed out. He's, he's good. Like he's, he's not going to do anything now. And then it cuts to like Shider kind of like jumping around in the snow, like with a machine gun on his back or something.

[00:28:56] Like just, I don't know. He's just immediately like going nuts. Uh, and it's, it's pretty wild to watch. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's like a little, not really actually, I was like Colonel Kurtz, like just going, going, like being, going feral kind of thing. Yeah. That's not really what's happening. It's just this perceived personal slight that Juergen Brock now with the snowballs did. And, and so they must destroy the planet basically. Yes. And that is, I mean, so the title of the movie comes from the Albert Einstein quote, uh, which

[00:29:23] they also kind of say at the end of the movie and voiceover, they kind of throw that quote out there. So, you know where, where the title came from. Yeah. Thank God. Cause otherwise it makes no sense. Uh, yes. But of course the quote being, uh, somebody asked, somebody asked Albert Einstein, like what, how world war three is going to go. And he says like, I know not with what weapons world war three will be fought, but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones. And of course the very end of the movie, it's Roy Shatter and Juergen Brock now just like beating each other, like without weapons. It's just the two of them. I think they do actually use stones at one point. Yeah.

[00:29:51] I think it gets to the point cause they're, yeah, they, they run out of ammo. They're, they're fist fighting. They grabbing sticks and stones. Yeah. They're trying to drown each other in the frozen lake and stuff. Yep. They realize the utility of all this because they look up and see the tanks and the helicopters and everybody ready to start world war three over this shit. Yes. Uh, and so that, then they lay down their weapons and then they hug or something. I don't know. We don't ever get to find out what the end of the movie is. Yes. As Harry Dean Stanton tells us this Einstein, Einstein quote. Yes.

[00:30:21] Uh, and there it is. Yeah. Otherwise, I don't know. I mean, there's, you know, like I said, there's some good action scenes in the movie. Um, the, the moment where he is, uh, he has those three soldiers hostage and he makes them sing happy birthday to him while he's drunk is very wild, uh, and very funny. And also he like pretends to, he has a grenade and he like pulls the pin and throws it like over their shoulders. So it blows up behind them. There's a lot of grenade throwing in this movie or, or, or frivolous grenade throwing. Yes. And he drops it in your grenade and Jurgen Procteau's lap in the car.

[00:30:51] They're all in. Oh yes. So he'll, he'll blow through the checkpoint. The, the lady defector plot is crazy. Uh, Elena, that, that character who, um, that, that shows up. Uh, so she comes in because, uh, in one of Scheider's like escapades, one of his like personal missions or whatever. His war crimes. Yeah. One of his war crimes. Uh, she, she's being held captive or something. Right. He like, he rescues her. Genuinely. I don't know.

[00:31:16] I think she just is a defector and happens to be crossing the border at the same time he's trying to return in the morning, unless she, they set that up somewhere else earlier in the movie. And I just didn't notice it. But he, but he takes her back. Uh, and she's kind of just hanging out for the rest of the movie. Right. She's just there. I don't, I don't really. Yeah. She, she explains something that she's part of this like underground student press. That's like distributing anti-Soviet propaganda or something. So she must cross the border to, to do something, but she has to go back because her son is

[00:31:45] there or her child or whatever. Right. And her mother is ill and can no longer take, take care of the child. So I have to go back. And he's like, if you go back, they'll kill you. So she stays, I think, I don't know. Uh, she's involved at the end somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Uh, all right. Should we move on to letterbox reviews, Mike? Should we see what the people say? You know what I will say about this movie? It is exactly 90 minutes long. True. It's fairly short, uh, which was kind of fun, kind of nice. We used to be a society. We used to be a society.

[00:32:13] Uh, we used to make, when we knew we had kind of a mediocre movie on our hands, we made sure they were 90 minutes. Yeah. So you can at least feel good about that. Uh, when you're watching it, it's okay. I mean, I think the movie is fine. It's, it's not terribly worth watching, but it's not worth not watching either. You know, I don't know if that's like a ringing endorsement or not. Yeah. It's okay. Yes. Uh, in any case, here's some letterbox reviews for the fourth war. I got a three star review here from Peter Labusa. Frank and Heimer may have softened from the sharp filmmaking that made the train and seconds

[00:32:41] crackerjack picture making, but he brings a need of restraint to overdoing the film's small scale. Indoor conversations are his strong suit as the former live television director works his way around the various power dynamics with rhythmic cutting and intense camera swings. Scheider may still feel a little young for the role, uh, which I don't know. He seems pretty old. He's pretty old. Uh, but he brings a dry humor to his violent Tom and Jerry like antics. Uh, never better than when throwing himself a birthday party. While pointing a gun at three young captured Czech soldiers.

[00:33:10] This would have been an absolute favorite of dads if shown on AMC during the mid nineties more, you know? Yeah, it's got that energy that that's a fair, you know, maybe we'd be, maybe we'd be more receptive to the movie if, if it was, uh, you know, if it would just happen to be on cable more. Yes. It was one of those TNT on mute kind of kind of movies. Yes, exactly. Uh, here's a five star review, uh, from Ben Peterson. Awesome snow set, suspenseful actioner that sees Roy Scheider having ultimate,

[00:33:37] one-on-one war games with a Russian counterpart who is stationed on the opposite side of the West German Czech border. Frankenheimer really just nails the pacing and always knows how to film action and create character. But this was a real gem for me. Also, Harry Dean Stanton's in this for just a bit, but his big scene that comes middle ways through inside shadows. Lodge is one of his best movie moments. I agree with the Stanton, Harry Dean Stanton point. Yeah, it truly, I mean, if you're going to watch the fourth war, you're watching it for Harry and Stanton again. Unbelievable. The way they start real friendly and all. Oh, it's so good.

[00:34:07] That seems great. Absolutely. All right. I got one more of you here, Mike. It's a three and a half star review from Steven. Two idiots who can't live without an enemy and annoy each other until it escalates. Uh, typical who has the bigger one comparison between Roy Scheider and Jurgen Prochnow, who plays the whole thing. Great and convincing. Yeah, the people like the movie. The people like the movie. I mean, I based on what I've seen from letterboxd, if people are watching the fourth war, they're typically people who are going to like the fourth. Okay, fair. Yeah, that's sort of that.

[00:34:36] I mean, it's it's otherwise a pretty forgotten film, I think. And there's not that many people who have logged in letterboxd. However, I think there's a there's a good amount of people who are like John Frankenheimer shooters who are big fans of that guy. Yeah. And who will watch whatever he directs. Uh, and I think there's a good chunk of movies in this era where he's making a lot of movies that like, ah, maybe aren't hitting or aren't that really positively received or that kind of thing. Uh, he does have at least one more great movie in him because Ronan comes out, uh, in 1998. And man, that movie slaps. That movie is incredible. Yeah.

[00:35:06] I gotta, I gotta fill in more of the Frankenheimer holes for me. There's pretty big gaps. I mean, uh, this, this podcast, uh, this season has given you a couple, uh, 52 pick up. And now this, uh, and I watched French connection too, uh, as well, uh, after for our French connection episode. Right. Yeah. I actually just picked up the, uh, criteria in Blu-ray of seconds. I've never seen that. So I'm excited to watch that. We did the train for Mike makes Mike watch, uh, in 2024. So that was a lot of fun. And yeah, Manchurian candidates won the checkout. Uh, I've heard grand prix is amazing. I've heard that movie is like unbelievable.

[00:35:36] Uh, so yeah, a ton of great movies in the Frankenheimer filmography, the fourth war, unfortunately, maybe not one of those. They can't all be winners. They can't all be dead bang, you know? Exactly. Yeah. At least I have seen dead bang. Yes. Uh, and that's coming up at a Mike makes Mike watch, uh, in 2025, hopefully. Uh, um, all right. I think that brings us to the end of this podcast, Mike. Are we ready? We did it. We made it. All right. Where can we find you online this week? You can find me at MD film blog on Twitter and letterboxd and blue sky.

[00:36:04] You can donate to support the show on our Kofi page, which is Kofi.com slash Mike and Mike pods, where you can donate $50 to pick a topic for bonus episode on Mike and Mike go to the movies, which one of our lovely listeners and good friends did. So stay tuned in the next coming weeks for a let's rank of the Muppet movies. If you listen to our diehard, uh, live episode this year, uh, we talked a lot about Muppet Christmas Carol for some reason. Well, it was, it was tis the season, you know, or twas the season.

[00:36:34] True. True. Uh, and, uh, revealed that maybe some of us, me haven't seen all of the, uh, many of the Muppet movies. Uh, so we're going to remedy that and rank them soon. Yes. So we're going to, we're going to watch all eight, uh, theatrically released movies. We're not counting the TV specials and all that stuff. No, just the ones that came out in theaters, uh, which I've seen, I think all of them or almost all of them. I actually may not have seen the great Muppet caper. That's one that like, and I've heard that one's incredible.

[00:37:04] Um, but I think I've seen the rest. Uh, so I, but it's been a long time since I've watched a lot of them. Uh, so I'm excited to, uh, revisit these, uh, because it's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've only seen the Muppet movie and then Christmas Carol and treasure island. So lots of gaps. You never saw the Muppets 2011, the Jason Segel one. Never. Not really. Uh, and I guess we'll talk about it in a couple of a couple of weeks, but, uh, that was one of the safe movies we could play on the blu-ray player at FYE.

[00:37:31] So I saw it for 10 weeks straight in five minute chunks when I noticed the TV, uh, uh, before frozen or whatever. I don't remember what it was. Fair enough. That movie, that movie was huge when it came out. That was a really big movie. Um, it revitalized the Muppets and the next movie killed it again. It was weird. All things in balance. Yes, exactly. Uh, so yeah, we'll be talking, uh, the Muppets pretty soon, uh, on the podcast. Look forward to that. Uh, and also look out for, uh, our 2024 year in review episode.

[00:38:01] That's going to be coming up in the, in the weeks to come too. Uh, you can find me online at Emma Smith film blog on Twitter, Mike Smith film on letterbox and radio Mike sandwich and Instagram. Uh, thank you so much. Listen to complete works. I'm Mike Smith. That's my decree show. Don't forget to rate and view the show on Apple podcasts or any other podcast app. And if you want to contact us, you can tweet at us at complete works pod. That's W R K S no O in the word works. You can find the rest of our podcast and rapture press alongside many other podcasts, what kinds of comic books and movie news and all that good stuff.

[00:38:28] Our theme song was created by Kyle Cullen. He creates your own podcast themes at Kyle's podcast, themes, gmail.com. And our logo was designed by Mac V or at fearless guard on Twitter. Next week, we returned to the realm of TV movies. Although it's not TV. It's HBO. Whoa. Whoa. Uh, for 1990s, somebody has to shoot the picture, uh, which on the Jeff Goldblum season, we also talked about a 1990 HBO movie that he starred in, uh, frame frame. Yeah. Uh, the longer we do this podcast, the,

[00:38:58] the more chances we have to talk about every HBO movie from 1990. That's actually what complete works. Season five is just HBO is 1990. Original picture. Just these completely forgotten movies. Uh, all right. Remember to check out our other podcast. Mike, Mike, go to the movies for all kinds of other movie related stuff, including recent releases, ranked list, general discussions, some Muppet stuff, and a lot more. Uh, thanks for listening guys. And remember to always roid between the lines.

[00:39:37] When did this movie come out? 1990. 1990. Yeah. Okay. Why? Well, I was just thinking, uh, that like the, so I was just looking up the Berlin Berlin wall falls in November, 1989. So it's like the USSR doesn't exist by the time this movie comes out. Sure. But the movie takes place in 88. Uh, they do say that at the beginning.

[00:40:05] I think, yeah, that's true. Anyway, I just thought when I was watching this movie, I was thinking about that. Uh, and I was like, how, like, how wild is it to like be in the middle of making a movie? Like we're always going to be fighting the Russia. And then by the time the movie comes out anyway, sorry. Anyway. Yeah.