This week, Roy Scheider as a college debate coach, alongside master debaters Kirk Cameron and Jami Gertz - what starts as a college ensemble movie then takes a hard pivot into the kind of thing you'd expect from a Kirk Cameron vehicle. This is LISTEN TO ME!
[00:00:00] It's showtime folks! It's on bad hat Harry's. What was the weight of the car when you got it, uh?
[00:00:06] You're not right or wrong. You just don't care.
[00:00:09] Benway! Oh sons of bitches. I didn't know. I didn't know.
[00:00:18] Welcome to episode 26 of The Complete Works season 4, a deep dive into the career and films of actor Roy Scheider.
[00:00:31] My name is Mike Smith and joining me on this journey across the Scheiderverse is my friend, co-host, and fellow Roy boy.
[00:00:37] Mike Triccio.
[00:00:38] How are you doing today Mike?
[00:00:39] I'm doing just great. Really excited to talk about this very topical movie from 1989.
[00:00:47] Unfortunately so. But otherwise I'm good. How are you Mike?
[00:00:50] I'm good. Excited to get into a movie where I only have to focus on one actor at a time.
[00:00:56] Last week of course we talked about Wicked. Two of our people were in there, Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yeoh.
[00:01:00] Now we're back to just one. We're just focusing on Roy Scheider now.
[00:01:03] It's half as exciting, you know? I'm sure the audience is frustrated. Like what's even the point? One actor? Come on!
[00:01:10] See I have the opposite reaction where I'm like oh now I can just I can relax a little bit.
[00:01:14] Oh I see. I'm so intensely focused on one person. Doing that for two people in Wicked? That's so uh...
[00:01:20] God gave us two eyes for a reason Mike.
[00:01:22] Yeah.
[00:01:24] One for Jeff Goldblum, one for Michelle Yeoh.
[00:01:26] Correct.
[00:01:27] That's the thing, yeah.
[00:01:28] Uh, now Mike, what do you think of when you think of Kirk Cameron?
[00:01:34] Um, mostly nothing honestly.
[00:01:38] Um, I, or rather I don't.
[00:01:40] Um, you know.
[00:01:42] He doesn't come to your thoughts that often?
[00:01:44] No, thank God.
[00:01:46] Um, but uh, uh, faith-based movies or whatever that weird genre is called.
[00:01:51] Um, and also conservatism.
[00:01:54] Yes.
[00:01:55] You know, we did talk about, um, so he was, he was the star of the Left Behind movies.
[00:02:00] Yes.
[00:02:00] Or the original run of them.
[00:02:02] And we talked about the reboot in 2014 which Nicolas Cage starred in.
[00:02:05] Yes.
[00:02:05] He was taking over the Kirk Cameron role, I think.
[00:02:08] So, yeah.
[00:02:08] You know, I, I don't know if that's true, but I'm gonna just let it ride.
[00:02:12] Yeah.
[00:02:13] I think it's more fun that way.
[00:02:15] Yeah.
[00:02:15] A very weird period of the Nicolas Cage career, I think.
[00:02:18] That movie's in, remember how many just planes fall out of the sky in that movie?
[00:02:22] Left Behind's wild.
[00:02:23] That movie's crazy.
[00:02:24] Uh, I, I never want to watch it again, but if I do, I hope it's uh, in a big room of people.
[00:02:29] Like I, just so everybody can react to it.
[00:02:32] Uh, but we were sort of the generation right after the hype.
[00:02:35] The highlight of Kirk Cameron's popularity.
[00:02:37] So I really only sort of knew him, but everything I did know about him was largely in the vein
[00:02:41] of, well, this guy's a born again Christian and he's a little nuts about it.
[00:02:45] Yeah.
[00:02:46] You know, uh, and doing some research.
[00:02:48] Oh, he's anti gay people.
[00:02:49] He's a Trump supporter.
[00:02:50] He was an anti massacre during the pandemic.
[00:02:52] Just in general, doesn't seem like a great dude.
[00:02:55] Checks all the boxes.
[00:02:57] Yes.
[00:02:57] But back in the eighties, Kirk Cameron became well-known for starring as the oldest child
[00:03:01] in the sitcom growing pains, which ran for seven seasons on ABC.
[00:03:06] I've never watched growing pain.
[00:03:08] Huh?
[00:03:09] And I think it's fair to say it has not left as much of a mark as similar shows from the
[00:03:13] same era.
[00:03:14] Like full house was kind of a similar show to that one.
[00:03:16] Right.
[00:03:16] Uh, have you ever seen growing pains Mike?
[00:03:19] Is that popped up for you at all?
[00:03:20] I mean, probably, but, uh, it feels like something that should have been on Nick at night at some
[00:03:24] point.
[00:03:25] And for whatever reason, I never saw it.
[00:03:26] Well, that's what I was going to say.
[00:03:28] Nick at night.
[00:03:28] It's, it's got big Nick at night vibes, but by the time like we were watching Nick at night,
[00:03:33] it was like, I love Lucy and three's company and stuff.
[00:03:36] Uh, and I know eventually it aged, they ran out of shit and they're like friends now or
[00:03:41] whatever.
[00:03:42] Um, so my, my era of Nick at night three's company was definitely on there.
[00:03:46] I feel like when I was watching Nick at night a lot, I was probably around nine or 10 and
[00:03:50] it was a lot of full house.
[00:03:51] Uh, it was a lot of family matters.
[00:03:53] Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
[00:03:54] Okay.
[00:03:54] Uh, was in there.
[00:03:55] So it was a lot of like 80s and 90s stuff.
[00:03:57] So what I'm saying is like growing pains, like would have fit right in there.
[00:04:00] It might've been in the Nick at night lineup at some point, but I never watched it.
[00:04:03] Never got around to it.
[00:04:04] Yeah.
[00:04:05] And I guess I am a couple of years older than you.
[00:04:06] So when I would have been nine or 10 and also watching Nick at night, I specifically
[00:04:11] remember I love Lucy and stuff like that.
[00:04:14] Uh, sure.
[00:04:14] And then eventually those would migrate over to TV land and that's where they would live.
[00:04:18] Uh, true.
[00:04:19] Yeah.
[00:04:20] Uh, that said there was one cast member on growing pains who went on to have a pretty major career.
[00:04:24] Mike, do you know who's who got their start in the show?
[00:04:25] I don't remember what show Michael J Fox was on.
[00:04:28] Is it, uh, it's not Michael J Fox.
[00:04:29] That was a family ties.
[00:04:31] Ah, okay.
[00:04:32] Then no, I don't off the top of my head.
[00:04:33] No, Leonardo DiCaprio really was added to the cast of growing pains and it's seventh and
[00:04:39] final season.
[00:04:40] Okay.
[00:04:40] All right.
[00:04:40] But he was, he was a regular cast member for that entire season.
[00:04:44] Uh, and that was like 92, 93.
[00:04:46] So, uh, you know, pretty, a pretty big stepping stone in the career of Leonardo DiCaprio.
[00:04:51] Also Ashley Johnson was on growing pains for a while.
[00:04:53] She was, uh, like as a, as a child, she was like the baby in the family.
[00:04:56] What I kind of found interesting in my research is that I sort of assumed that Kirk Cameron had
[00:05:01] adopted the sort of born again, Christian thing years after the show ended.
[00:05:04] It turns out, no, it was actually at the height of the show's popularity.
[00:05:07] That sort of tracks.
[00:05:09] Yeah, sure.
[00:05:10] A little bit.
[00:05:10] It was about the time he turned 18.
[00:05:12] Uh, and he actually started to object to some of the more salacious things his character might
[00:05:16] do on the show.
[00:05:17] Uh, like go to bed with a girl and forget her name in the morning.
[00:05:19] Uh, like that kind of thing.
[00:05:21] And so he would dork and he would request those storylines to be taken out.
[00:05:25] Uh, he also started kind of alienating his cast mates and, uh, did not maintain contact
[00:05:29] with any of them after the show ended.
[00:05:31] Uh, although there has been like growing pains reunions in the years since there was
[00:05:35] like a continuation, like a TV movie or something, you know, down the line.
[00:05:38] So it was shortly after this conversion to Christianity that Kirk Cameron got the opportunity to star
[00:05:44] in a new movie, a movie that at times, especially towards the end really feels like Kirk Cameron
[00:05:50] is lecturing you about religious subjects.
[00:05:52] And, uh, it's about as much fun as that sounds.
[00:05:55] It feels like it's because that is happening.
[00:05:58] Yes.
[00:05:58] Uh, but since Roy Scheider is in it, we've got to talk about listen to me.
[00:06:03] The bait as practice here is rougher than football.
[00:06:07] They live in a world where words mean everything.
[00:06:10] Meaner than ice hockey.
[00:06:12] Where argument is the weapon of choice.
[00:06:15] And because women can play at it.
[00:06:17] You're a Tremanski.
[00:06:18] You're supposed to be brilliant.
[00:06:20] Just as down and dirty as the men.
[00:06:23] I'm sure I've ever heard of the women's movement.
[00:06:25] Yeah, but I wish I had.
[00:06:26] It's probably the scariest, most fascinating sport on the face of the planet.
[00:06:31] There isn't anyone they can't talk to.
[00:06:33] I don't want to be Tucker's debate partner.
[00:06:34] We usually end up debating each other instead of our opponents.
[00:06:37] Well, I don't think I want to be your partner either.
[00:06:40] Except each other.
[00:06:41] Shut up, okay?
[00:06:43] I was really liking this.
[00:06:45] What would you say if I told you that you could be debating in front of the Supreme Court this spring?
[00:06:51] Sometimes I think I'm not going to make it.
[00:06:53] You know as well as I they don't stand a chance.
[00:06:56] Don't be too sure of that.
[00:07:00] Oh, geez, I want an old television right there.
[00:07:02] And what we need to do to regain our integrity as human beings.
[00:07:08] Making one gender pay the price for our sins is wrong.
[00:07:13] Not valuing human life is wrong.
[00:07:16] Do you realize what just happened?
[00:07:17] We just beat the best collegiate debate team in history.
[00:07:20] I don't wish you could have said it.
[00:07:22] Oh, he would have been so proud.
[00:07:25] I just got one question.
[00:07:26] I feel so free.
[00:07:27] I never thought people could feel this free.
[00:07:29] I don't know.
[00:07:30] Kirk Cameron.
[00:07:32] You didn't make that up, did you?
[00:07:33] Jamie Gertz.
[00:07:36] Roy Scheider.
[00:07:37] They sought victory at any cost and passion at any price.
[00:07:42] Listen to me now available on videocassette.
[00:07:45] So Roy Scheider stars in listen to me as Charlie Nichols, the coach of the debate team at Kenmont College.
[00:07:54] The part was actually originally supposed to be played by James Garner, but he ended up having last minute heart surgery and Scheider was brought in to replace him, which I feel like that's happened a lot throughout the career of Roy Scheider at this point.
[00:08:06] Right. I feel like I feel like it's been brought up a few times.
[00:08:08] We're like, oh, this person was supposed to play this role and they had to drop out last minute.
[00:08:12] So Roy Scheider came in.
[00:08:13] He's always ready, baby.
[00:08:14] Yes, he's the plan B for a lot of directors out there.
[00:08:19] But from there, Kirk Cameron is the lead of the movie, Tucker Muldowney, and his love interest slash debate partner, Monica Tmanski, is played by Jamie Gertz, who, of course, we know as Bill Paxton's new fiance, Dr. Melissa Reeves in the hit 1996 John DeBonte film Twister.
[00:08:34] That's right. How could we forget?
[00:08:35] Yes. You know, Mike D babysitter movie covered in this podcast a couple of times, I think at this point.
[00:08:42] Yeah. And so, yeah, this is, I think, the only other thing I've seen.
[00:08:45] Actually, I feel like she was also on a sitcom.
[00:08:48] Was she on in the 2000s in the aughts?
[00:08:51] And I don't remember what it was called off the top of my head.
[00:08:55] She was in The Neighbors. Is that what you're talking about?
[00:08:57] No.
[00:08:58] OK. Still Standing.
[00:09:00] Still Standing.
[00:09:01] That's the one.
[00:09:01] OK. Yeah. She was on a sitcom called Still Standing.
[00:09:04] You're right, Mike.
[00:09:04] I remember being a teenager and liking that show.
[00:09:06] Is it because you recognized her from Twister?
[00:09:09] I was just doing the Leo point for four seasons.
[00:09:11] No, I don't remember.
[00:09:13] The point from the guy from season seven of Growing Fans?
[00:09:15] That's right.
[00:09:15] Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:17] Yeah, I remember watching that with my family because we had a monoculture still back then.
[00:09:20] Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:21] If there was a thing on TV, you watched it.
[00:09:23] Yeah.
[00:09:23] It's how it worked.
[00:09:25] Tim Quill, who also had a small role in Ben Affleck's Argo, plays Garson McKellar, Tucker's roommate and the star debater.
[00:09:31] But really, he just wants to be a writer.
[00:09:33] And then he dies.
[00:09:36] Yeah, he does.
[00:09:37] Amanda Peterson from Can't Buy Me Love plays Donna Loomis, the handicapped girl on the debate team.
[00:09:42] George Weiner, who played Colonel Sanders in Spaceballs, plays Dean Schwimmer, the dean of the school.
[00:09:47] Anthony Zerv, who was the villain in the James Bond movie License to Kill, plays Senator McKellar, Garson's father.
[00:09:53] Quinn Cummins from The Goodbye Girl plays Susan Hooper.
[00:09:55] Christopher Atkins from The Blue Lagoon plays Bruce Arlington, and he won the Razzie Award for Worst Supporting Actor for this movie.
[00:10:01] That's crazy.
[00:10:02] Yes.
[00:10:03] He does.
[00:10:03] He's not in enough of the movie, I think, to garner that nomination.
[00:10:06] I think, you know?
[00:10:07] Yeah.
[00:10:07] This movie should not have had enough cultural registry to get on to be a golden Razzie.
[00:10:12] This was the only nomination that movie got at the Razzies.
[00:10:15] Okay.
[00:10:15] All right.
[00:10:16] Which is interesting.
[00:10:17] I think it's mostly just because of Christopher Atkins, like being in The Blue Lagoon.
[00:10:21] Which was like kind of considered like a really trashy bad movie at the time.
[00:10:24] Makes sense.
[00:10:24] But a big hit.
[00:10:25] Peter DeLuise from 21 Jump Street, he plays Cameron Sweet.
[00:10:28] Jason Gould, the son of Barbra Streisand and Elliot Goulds, plays Hinklestein.
[00:10:33] Yardley Smith, the voice of Lisa Simpson, plays Coots.
[00:10:37] Frank Zappa's daughter, Moon Unit Zappa, plays Longnecker.
[00:10:40] There's a lot of wild people in this movie, actually.
[00:10:41] There's crazy.
[00:10:42] And one big one we're going to get to in a second.
[00:10:44] Oh yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:45] Rance Howard, the father of Ron and Clint Howard, plays Mr. Muldowney, Tucker's dad.
[00:10:51] Ron Maysack from Murder, She Wrote, plays Mr. Tomansky, Monica's dad.
[00:10:55] And Martin West from Assault on Precinct 13, plays Justice Blevins, the judge.
[00:11:00] And finally, extremely controversial children's show producer, Dan Schneider.
[00:11:05] It's interesting that we've already talked a lot about Nick at Night and Nickelodeon already.
[00:11:10] He plays Nathan Gore, one of the other kids in this movie.
[00:11:13] When I saw his name in the opening credits, I almost did a spit take and was like,
[00:11:16] that can't be the same Dan Schneider.
[00:11:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:20] I like saw that name and I was like, why does that sound familiar?
[00:11:23] I don't really know.
[00:11:24] And then he shows up like in the opening credit montage, basically.
[00:11:28] And I was like, oh my fucking God.
[00:11:30] Oh no.
[00:11:32] I have an hour and 40 more minutes of this.
[00:11:35] Yes.
[00:11:36] And yeah, it's like a bit part that he's in.
[00:11:38] He's not in that much of the movie, but he's like, it's a pretty large ensemble they have for the debate team in this film.
[00:11:42] Yes.
[00:11:42] And so, and a lot of them happen to be pretty recognizable faces, which is pretty wild.
[00:11:46] When Dan Schneider showed up, didn't see that one coming.
[00:11:49] I researched it cause I was like, I had no idea he was an actor before all this stuff.
[00:11:53] Well, before he started producing Nickelodeon shows and then other things happened.
[00:11:56] Yeah.
[00:11:57] But yeah, he was like, he was an actor in the eighties popped up.
[00:11:59] He was in a few like John Cusack movies and that kind of thing.
[00:12:01] And, and he's in listen to me.
[00:12:03] He's in this movie.
[00:12:05] And also I'm not sure if he's in it, but he's the subject of a movie that came out last year that you can watch on HBO Max right now.
[00:12:12] Yeah.
[00:12:12] A series.
[00:12:13] Oh yeah.
[00:12:14] It's like a four part series.
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:16] The movie was written by Douglas Day Stewart, Jack Cummins and Daniel Arthur Ray and directed by Douglas Day Stewart.
[00:12:22] Uh, Stewart had built a career as a screenwriter writing films like the boy in the plastic bubble, the blue lagoon, and an officer and a gentleman.
[00:12:28] He was actually nominated for an Oscar for an officer and a gentleman.
[00:12:30] This was one of two movies he directed in his career.
[00:12:33] The other being 1984 is thief of hearts, uh, which is an early film produced by Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer in erotic drama.
[00:12:40] Uh, he would then go on to write the screenplay for the Demi Moore version of the scarlet letter in 1995.
[00:12:44] And then I think stopped making movies cause they ran him out of Hollywood.
[00:12:48] He went into director jail.
[00:12:50] Yes.
[00:12:50] Uh, listen to me opened on May 5th, 1989.
[00:12:53] And despite being the only major release that weekend, totally flopped.
[00:12:57] It opened to number six and it dropped from there.
[00:13:00] Apparently the film's marketing was going to focus on Kirk Cameron being the star.
[00:13:03] Like it was the height of growing pains popularity.
[00:13:05] This is the thing.
[00:13:06] Right.
[00:13:06] But producer Jerry Weintraub forced the marketing instead to focus on the abortion angle because he thought it would stir up controversy and that would get people to go into the movie.
[00:13:15] Uh, and what happened instead is that no one saw it.
[00:13:17] No, no, no one wants to see this movie.
[00:13:22] Uh, number one at the box office that weekend was pet cemetery and it's third week.
[00:13:26] Hell yeah.
[00:13:27] I love getting crushed by a third week run.
[00:13:29] Uh, and the rest of the top 10 consisted of K nine field of dreams, major league criminal law, the dream team say anything rain man.
[00:13:40] And it's 21st week, uh, and scandal.
[00:13:42] Isn't it crazy?
[00:13:43] I think at the, uh, in last episode we were like rain man just opened like whatever it was in its fifth week or something.
[00:13:51] And here is at this point.
[00:13:53] Now, rain man has won the Oscar for best picture.
[00:13:55] So I think that probably generated like a boost in its box office for these last few weeks.
[00:13:58] But yeah, here we go.
[00:13:59] The IMD plot synopsis for listen to me reads a group of college debaters learn about the world friendships, love dreams, and family in this warm, endearing drama.
[00:14:10] All right.
[00:14:10] A little editorializing in there, but okay.
[00:14:13] Did Kirk Cameron write that one himself?
[00:14:14] Yeah.
[00:14:15] User review Cameron Kirk.
[00:14:17] Wait.
[00:14:18] Uh, so yeah, Mike D going into this movie.
[00:14:20] I mean, obviously, uh, you know, I don't think we were expecting too much from it necessarily, but what are your overall thoughts on listen to me?
[00:14:27] Yeah.
[00:14:27] Um, this is a movie I definitely had not heard of before this podcast.
[00:14:31] So I really had no expectations.
[00:14:33] Didn't really know what to think of it.
[00:14:35] I saw it was like something about debate teams and I was like, okay, whatever.
[00:14:38] It could be something interesting.
[00:14:39] Sometimes we've saw, I don't, I don't, I think we've talked about this season.
[00:14:42] A lot of times this comes up sometimes on Mike, Mike, go to the movies, the bonus episodes where, um, really just like the alchemy of making a movie and how you have all these disparate parts and they all come together.
[00:14:52] And sometimes it's bad.
[00:14:54] Sometimes it just doesn't work.
[00:14:55] Uh, you, you, you shake it all up and you get just to the dumbest shit ever.
[00:14:59] Uh, and sometimes that happens.
[00:15:01] And Roy Scheider is in that movie.
[00:15:02] And that's, that's, that's this movie.
[00:15:04] Uh, listen to me looks awful.
[00:15:07] Um, we've, we talked about TV movies in the, uh, few episodes in the beginning of this season and sort of my, uh, I, uh, sort of unfostered cultural fascination with them as a artifact of their, of their time.
[00:15:18] And this has big, big, like afterschool special TV movie, uh, vibes, but it just is not, it was a real movie, a real theatrical movie that came out at number six in the box office that weekend, which is crazy.
[00:15:30] It's just bad.
[00:15:31] I don't know.
[00:15:31] I really, I don't know.
[00:15:32] There's something about the writing.
[00:15:33] There's something about the way it looks.
[00:15:34] Also, we are watching, uh, it's on YouTube, uh, and it's clearly a like VHS rip, uh, with like tracking issues and audio issues and stuff.
[00:15:42] Well, yeah, if you watch it on YouTube, it's clear that whoever uploaded it, uh, turned the volume down during the song stuff.
[00:15:48] So whenever there's a, you know, a couple of moments where like, you know, a real song will play like a song from the time.
[00:15:55] There's like a montage set to tutti fruity by little Richard, uh, and that kind of thing.
[00:15:58] Uh, and because you're watching it on YouTube and the uploader doesn't want to get taken down, uh, they kind of cut in and out of the audio throughout, which does make it a little weird.
[00:16:07] Yeah.
[00:16:07] You can just, you get enough, a couple, like a second or two at a time every now and then.
[00:16:11] So, you know, like tutti fruity is playing and then it's off.
[00:16:13] Uh, so that the, the copyright stuff won't pick it up and things like that.
[00:16:17] And the volume fluctuates and the picture fluctuates like some tracking issues.
[00:16:20] Like I said, not the best presentation, which, you know, can't really knock the film for that, but it does all add up to just being me, just being like completely disinterested in this topic, completely disinterested in everything, uh, going on.
[00:16:33] And it's just boring.
[00:16:34] And like you said, it's Kirk Cameron talking to you, like almost direct to camera sometimes literally, uh, cause they are debates, right?
[00:16:41] It is, uh, you know, makes sense in the movie.
[00:16:44] Uh, but direct to camera explaining to you why actually abortion's bad.
[00:16:47] Uh, and you're just like, fuck off, man.
[00:16:49] I don't, fuck you.
[00:16:50] Um, I don't give a shit.
[00:16:52] It's, I can't, I, I couldn't in the year 2024 in particularly the month of November, 2024, uh, stomach any of this.
[00:17:00] Um, so on top of the movie, not being good, there's also that, um, to it also.
[00:17:06] So yeah, really checked out, uh, for most of the film.
[00:17:09] And I think there's just, uh, you know, it's not, it's a no good dirty rotten movie basically.
[00:17:15] Fair enough.
[00:17:15] Yeah.
[00:17:16] Mike D hated it.
[00:17:16] Uh, and yeah, I also did not like this movie, but I will say maybe like the first, like 30, 40, even like about the halfway point, I was still kind of in, like, I, I kind of enjoyed it.
[00:17:26] Um, for the first half, part of it is just like, yes, it does feel like an afterschool special.
[00:17:31] It feels like a TV movie.
[00:17:32] It is such a weird cultural artifact where like, oh, there's a lot of people in this movie that is like, oh, it's crazy that like Yardley Smith is here.
[00:17:39] You know, that kind of thing.
[00:17:40] And also I do have a sort of a soft spot for movies about teenagers.
[00:17:44] Uh, you know, just the stuff that's set in high school or college.
[00:17:46] I'm usually kind of a little bit into at least I was sort of treating it like as if I was watching like a B plus episode of Degrassi or something for the first, like, yes, half of the movie.
[00:17:56] You know, it's, it's, it's all very like trite, silly stuff.
[00:18:00] Uh, the, some of the dialogue is insane and some of the characters are kind of fun.
[00:18:04] I did like the one horny guy, uh, the one horny guy, the guy that just keeps yelling horny.
[00:18:10] No, uh, no, Amanda Peterson from camp.
[00:18:13] I mean, I love she played Donna Loomis, the, the handicap girl on the team.
[00:18:15] Yes.
[00:18:16] I think she was actually very good and like her scene and stuff like that.
[00:18:19] And I don't know.
[00:18:20] I sort of like the way it was structured, like a sports movie for a while, uh, where, where it is just like we're the debate team and we're the underdogs and we got to go all the way to the finals.
[00:18:28] And in this case, the finals is like debating in front of the Supreme court for some reason.
[00:18:32] Right.
[00:18:33] But not like at the Supreme court.
[00:18:34] It's just like they are overseeing this debate tournament.
[00:18:38] Yes.
[00:18:39] Uh, and so, yeah, no, I, I kind of enjoyed that aspect of it.
[00:18:43] And, you know, to, to that end that they introduced the abortion topic pretty early on for the first half of the movie, it's sort of feels like it is trying to strike a balance between the two sided, like the arguments.
[00:18:55] Right.
[00:18:55] Right.
[00:18:56] Um, but you know, despite the fact that like, you know, Kirk Cameron's in this movie, so it's
[00:19:00] like, it's probably not going to go the way you want it to go.
[00:19:03] Uh, at the same time, it's like, ah, but I didn't do any of the research he has like, oh, maybe this is from before he was a boarding egg Christian or something.
[00:19:10] Maybe, maybe he's going to like be in favor of abortion, uh, in this movie or whatever.
[00:19:14] The way they kind of structure it is, uh, Jamie Girtz's character is extremely pro abortion and he's extremely anti abortion.
[00:19:21] Uh, and then the two of them have to like swap sides because it's a debate team.
[00:19:26] And I've heard of that like kind of practice being used in debate club and stuff before where it's like you have to, you know, form a debate from the perspective of somebody who thinks the exact opposite as you do.
[00:19:34] Like you have to talk about an issue, uh, from the completely different side of it.
[00:19:37] So you can kind of understand it in full and that kind of thing.
[00:19:40] Uh, so all of that, I kind of found interesting.
[00:19:43] And then like halfway through, it kind of feels like the movie forgets that it's all part of just like a fictional debate.
[00:19:47] And it's like, oh no, this movie is turning into a really big anti abortion screed.
[00:19:51] Uh, yeah.
[00:19:52] Which, uh, which is a little bit of a bummer.
[00:19:54] Yeah.
[00:19:55] And, and it's, um, I think you're all right.
[00:19:57] I think it is interesting, uh, a little bit in the, like this college is renowned for its debate team.
[00:20:03] Like the, I think the open is Scheider's first scene is him talking about the, the debate here is as rough as the football team and as mean as the ice hockey team anywhere else.
[00:20:11] And all this stuff.
[00:20:12] And so like, yeah, it's a town, a college that is known for its debate team and debate team success.
[00:20:18] And so all the debate team people are like jocks.
[00:20:20] Uh, they are jocks.
[00:20:21] Like they are all the archetypes of like a regular sports film, uh, which is fun for 10 minutes for me.
[00:20:27] I was like, I'm out, I'm checked out.
[00:20:29] And yeah, I mean, they, they are sort of, uh, they, they're gonna go to states or whatever.
[00:20:33] They're gonna go to finals or whatever the hell it is.
[00:20:35] Uh, or regionals or whatever that joke is.
[00:20:37] Um, and, uh, so then they know that the topic is going to be about abortion and yeah.
[00:20:42] So they have to argue amongst themselves as a, as practice, right?
[00:20:46] They have to flip sides.
[00:20:47] Like you were talking about ultimately when they get to the big climactic tournament, their team gets the, uh, the negative, no, the positive, which means that abortion should be outlawed or reversed.
[00:20:58] Roe v. Wade should be reversed.
[00:21:00] And here I am in November, 20, 24, right?
[00:21:02] Watching this movie and watching Kirk Cameron noted conservative, I'll say.
[00:21:07] Um, sure.
[00:21:08] Sure.
[00:21:09] Proselytized to be about it.
[00:21:10] And I was just like, fuck all, fuck all the way off.
[00:21:12] Um, so yeah, it's just a lot of things going against this film for me.
[00:21:15] Um, yeah, no, I, I a hundred percent agree with you on all those points.
[00:21:18] Yeah.
[00:21:19] But I, but I do think like for the first half of it, I was like, I was semi enjoying it.
[00:21:22] I think like when they're at that barbecue and Roy Scheider has the, the straw hat and I was like, Oh, actually this is kind of fun.
[00:21:30] I'm into it.
[00:21:31] And then he's like, and you know, the topic for the finals will be abortion.
[00:21:34] And I was just like, like alarms going off.
[00:21:37] Like, no done.
[00:21:39] I'm out.
[00:21:42] Just like the submarine sirens going, you know, everything.
[00:21:45] Uh, I was, I was out for those reasons.
[00:21:48] I'm out.
[00:21:48] Fair enough.
[00:21:49] But speaking of Roy Scheider is in the movie, Mike.
[00:21:52] He is a last minute replacement for James Garner, but yeah, he plays the debate coach.
[00:21:56] What did you think of Roy Scheider in this movie?
[00:21:57] I cannot tell what I think about Roy Scheider in this movie.
[00:22:02] I don't think you're too blinded by rage from the film itself.
[00:22:05] No, I don't think he's awful, but I don't think he's great.
[00:22:09] There's a, there's a weird like affectation.
[00:22:12] He has the whole movie where he is like, this is all a ruse is like sort of his, like every delivery sounds like.
[00:22:18] Like every line sounds like that.
[00:22:20] Yeah.
[00:22:20] And I guess that makes sense for the character.
[00:22:23] Like as this debate coach in particular, I mean, there are moments that are really great for him that the scene when they're practicing in the classroom or whatever it is.
[00:22:30] And he tells his story about his mother.
[00:22:32] Right.
[00:22:32] And this is a whole big monologue about how she had a illegal abortion when she was 19 before he was born.
[00:22:38] And then she almost died because of the whole, you know, these things are outlawed.
[00:22:41] So they become black market procedures and stuff.
[00:22:43] So you there's, there's no regulations, no safety saying anything. Right.
[00:22:46] And his mom almost bled out and died.
[00:22:47] I forget exactly, but he's got some rye.
[00:22:50] Like my mom never had an abortion.
[00:22:52] Like it's like the final line.
[00:22:54] Right. Like it was all just something he made up on the spot kind of right to like pull at the heartstrings to prove his point.
[00:22:59] If you can't, if you can't win a debate on facts, win on drama, I think is what he says at the end of the movie.
[00:23:05] And so, yeah, it's this whole thing, but he has this whole, every line and the whole, every scene has this, like, I'm putting on a persona and he's got like a weird, and so we're debating.
[00:23:14] And I don't know. He's like got weird deliveries. He's got a weird voice.
[00:23:17] So, yeah, I don't, I can't tell what I really think.
[00:23:20] I think there's moments that are really great, but overall I think this movie just sucks.
[00:23:23] And unfortunately, Shider does not, does not save it.
[00:23:26] So sure.
[00:23:26] I think that's fair.
[00:23:27] I do think he is good in the movie and like, I think that is his sent out scene, the scene where he is kind of making up the story about his mother having an abortion.
[00:23:34] Right.
[00:23:35] But there are other, you know, it's a weird, I mean, it's such a weird script.
[00:23:39] It's so weird for him to kind of act in it.
[00:23:42] You know, a big chunk of the movie is about his relationship to Garson.
[00:23:46] I think it's the kid's name.
[00:23:47] Some other kid, some other character.
[00:23:48] Yeah.
[00:23:49] Somebody who is not one of our two main characters, who is, is, is like the star debater.
[00:23:54] He's Tucker's roommate.
[00:23:55] He's Kurt.
[00:23:55] He's Kurt Cameron's roommate.
[00:23:56] He's the star debater on the team.
[00:23:58] He's like a senior.
[00:23:59] He's the master debater.
[00:24:00] Yes.
[00:24:00] He's the master debater.
[00:24:02] And yeah, I, he is like, you know, going, going places.
[00:24:05] He's got it.
[00:24:05] He's on track for a career in politics, just like a dad who's a senator, but he doesn't want
[00:24:09] a career in politics.
[00:24:10] He wants to be a writer.
[00:24:12] And so he's trying to get out of debate, but they keep pulling him back in because he's
[00:24:16] too good at it.
[00:24:17] Just when he thought he was out.
[00:24:18] And so Roy Scheider is like this, this figure who is kind of continuing to bring him back
[00:24:22] into the debate team and continuing to bring him back into competitions.
[00:24:26] And so he and that kid have sort of a mentor mentee relationship.
[00:24:30] Do feel like they, you know, respect each other as people beyond just the debate thing.
[00:24:35] But Scheider really wants him to continue doing the debate thing.
[00:24:37] And then the kid dies.
[00:24:39] Yeah, he does.
[00:24:39] In wild fashion.
[00:24:41] And Scheider kind of blames himself for pushing the kid too far.
[00:24:45] And there's the scene where he's yelling at the dean like you and I, we killed that
[00:24:48] boy.
[00:24:49] It's so funny.
[00:24:51] So I do think he is as good as this movie can allow him to be.
[00:24:56] Yes.
[00:24:56] Good way to phrase that.
[00:24:57] But the fact is he's, he's having to spout some insane dialogue and do some ridiculous
[00:25:02] things throughout the film.
[00:25:03] He does wear that joint, jaunty little hat though.
[00:25:05] He certainly does.
[00:25:06] Yeah.
[00:25:08] Yeah.
[00:25:08] I think that whole thing that his position as a debate coach allowed him to like manipulate
[00:25:14] and deny that kid position or opportunities so that he would stay on the debate team at
[00:25:19] the request of his father.
[00:25:20] Yeah.
[00:25:20] And, uh, we'd tell him, you know, you're no good as a playwright kid and all this stuff.
[00:25:25] Um, yeah, I got what it takes.
[00:25:26] You're never going to make it.
[00:25:27] Um, so he would stay on the debate team and go into this, uh, the, the track towards politics,
[00:25:33] right.
[00:25:33] And all this stuff is just like, so funny.
[00:25:35] I don't know.
[00:25:36] Like it, like logistically, the debate coach has that much pull to alter this kid's life.
[00:25:43] Uh, also like if you, if you're very good at the debate team, you don't have to go into
[00:25:47] politics afterwards, right?
[00:25:48] Like, well, he's got a family legacy to continue.
[00:25:50] Well, sure.
[00:25:51] But I want you, it's your dream dad, not mine.
[00:25:53] Um, it's just funny.
[00:25:55] I don't know.
[00:25:55] And, and like the seriousness with once that kid dies, that scene when he's with the Dean
[00:25:59] and the Dean's like, well, you were responsible for them in New York.
[00:26:02] He's like, I'll go to the press.
[00:26:03] You're like, what?
[00:26:04] What are you talking about?
[00:26:05] I'll tell them all.
[00:26:06] It's like, okay.
[00:26:07] And we should mention, so Garson dies, but it's, it's right after he assaults, uh, Jamie
[00:26:11] Gertz, um, attempts to, yeah, no, well definitely assault her.
[00:26:15] He hits her.
[00:26:16] Yeah.
[00:26:16] It hits, it hits her and is like attempting to have sex with her.
[00:26:18] And she's like, you know, refusing and she's like trying to get out of there.
[00:26:21] Uh, he's like trapping her in his hotel room.
[00:26:23] She finally gets out after he hits her.
[00:26:25] Uh, and then Tucker goes to find him.
[00:26:28] It's like, Hey, I just want to talk to you, man.
[00:26:29] And then he runs into the street and gets hit by a car and dies.
[00:26:31] And dies.
[00:26:32] And they never talk about him again, which is so funny.
[00:26:35] They do talk about him again.
[00:26:37] Uh, I think in her, um, made my, my friend who died recently.
[00:26:41] Yeah.
[00:26:42] She's like talks about her friend who died recently.
[00:26:44] Like it did.
[00:26:44] It affects them all for like five minutes and then they have to go into the debate.
[00:26:47] And then in the, uh, in the debate where she has to, uh, create an argument against abortion.
[00:26:52] Uh, she brings up his death as a, you know, an emotional undercurrent.
[00:26:55] Yeah.
[00:26:56] The every life is precious thing, you know?
[00:26:59] Yeah.
[00:26:59] That Reagan's America taught us.
[00:27:01] So that's nice.
[00:27:03] It's a, it was weird.
[00:27:05] Uh, it's a weird.
[00:27:06] Also Dan Schneider's in this.
[00:27:08] Also Dan Schneider's.
[00:27:09] It just adds up to a lot of uncomfortable weirdness.
[00:27:12] Yes.
[00:27:12] I think you're right.
[00:27:13] Uh, how do you think this fits into the Roy Shadder roles that we've seen so far, Mike?
[00:27:16] You know, I think it's a turn a little bit, maybe not particularly the role, but sort of,
[00:27:20] um, the quality of the movie, you know, I don't think everything's been a 10 out of
[00:27:25] 10 banger that we've watched so far where this definitely feels like a, a standout, like,
[00:27:29] Oh baby, here we are.
[00:27:31] Or like, you think this represents something in the, uh, the Shadder career where it's,
[00:27:34] it's all downhill from here.
[00:27:35] I don't know if it's all downhill from here.
[00:27:37] I mean, you know, you, you have Cohen and Tate last episode, right?
[00:27:40] And it's like, okay, this is a banger right there.
[00:27:41] 10 out of 10 banger.
[00:27:42] However, broader resource luminate or before that was, uh, uh, 52 pickup.
[00:27:49] That's a Canon picture, right?
[00:27:50] Like we're kind of, we're stepping, we're stepping down from the, the, the sorcerers and the French
[00:27:54] connections and the, and the jaws is the foundational texts of cinema post 1970.
[00:27:58] Sure.
[00:27:59] Uh, and here we are and listen to me.
[00:28:02] Um, so I don't know.
[00:28:03] I'm afraid I'm scared.
[00:28:05] Looking also at the, the sort of volume, uh, looming in front of us in the nineties, PTSD,
[00:28:09] maybe from late stage cage.
[00:28:11] We're like, Oh no.
[00:28:13] Oh man.
[00:28:14] Some of these movies don't have Wikipedia pages.
[00:28:16] Like what are we in for?
[00:28:19] Um, so there's that.
[00:28:21] But as far as it relates to things we have watched, it's another, I mean, I was gonna say
[00:28:25] another like authority figure kind of thing, but, but try to play that a lot more.
[00:28:28] More frequently earlier in his career than our other subjects for our seasons.
[00:28:32] So that's already sort of been going on.
[00:28:34] That's true.
[00:28:34] Yeah.
[00:28:34] He was like 40 when he finally broke out as an actor.
[00:28:37] So he has that kind of aura about him already.
[00:28:39] What else?
[00:28:39] I forget.
[00:28:40] Yeah.
[00:28:40] Yeah.
[00:28:40] I can't, that's sort of it.
[00:28:41] I don't know.
[00:28:42] He hasn't been a teacher before.
[00:28:44] I don't know.
[00:28:44] Well, yeah, actually he was, uh, he was a teacher in the men's club.
[00:28:47] If you recall correctly.
[00:28:48] God.
[00:28:49] Yeah.
[00:28:49] You're right.
[00:28:49] Uh, he was a professor at a college in the men's club.
[00:28:52] Uh, these actually men's club does feel like sort of of a piece with this movie.
[00:28:57] So I was actually just thinking that.
[00:28:59] Yeah.
[00:28:59] I mean, also a movie that just feels reprehensible.
[00:29:02] Yeah.
[00:29:02] Lots of direct to camera monologues.
[00:29:05] Yes.
[00:29:05] Stuff like that.
[00:29:06] Yeah.
[00:29:07] I do think men's club, uh, looked better than this movie at least.
[00:29:10] Uh, correct.
[00:29:10] So there is that.
[00:29:11] And it had that guy from body though.
[00:29:13] And it had the guy from body double entry Williams and Harvey Keitel.
[00:29:15] No, there's a much cooler cast that, uh, had instead of Kirk Cameron and Dan Schneider.
[00:29:26] Crazy.
[00:29:27] What is insane confluence of things to be happening?
[00:29:30] Yes.
[00:29:31] Uh, absolutely.
[00:29:32] That said Jamie Gertz innocent.
[00:29:34] I think she's actually very good in this.
[00:29:35] You know what?
[00:29:35] Yes.
[00:29:36] Correct.
[00:29:36] You know, uh, despite what they like have to make her do at the end where she is arguing
[00:29:40] against abortion, you know, I think she is actually really solid in it.
[00:29:43] And Amanda Peterson also very good in it too.
[00:29:45] Yeah.
[00:29:45] Jamie Gertz, uh, Jamie Gertz innocent is a pretty good way to put that.
[00:29:49] We support women's rights and women's wrongs.
[00:29:52] Yeah.
[00:29:52] And that's, uh, it is, it is such a weird thing where, like I said, like for a while
[00:29:56] it's, it does seem like the movie is trying to show both sides of the argument.
[00:29:59] Um, because it's like the debate club, it's just like, we're all neutral here.
[00:30:03] We're all just kind of talking about it from every perspective.
[00:30:05] And then at the end of the movie, like they have to argue against abortion.
[00:30:08] Uh, and Jamie Gertz, like seems to sell out all of her values, uh, as, as a character,
[00:30:14] right?
[00:30:14] Like the, uh, like her whole thing, like, oh, well it would be stupid to be against abortion.
[00:30:18] Like you need this and you need this, like all that stuff.
[00:30:20] And Kirk Cameron's like, yeah, well I'm from the South lady.
[00:30:23] And we're from, we go to some churches back there and I got a lot of people who disagree
[00:30:27] with you.
[00:30:28] Uh, yeah.
[00:30:29] This really just, uh, the, the, the, the rot at the underpin underbelly of America as,
[00:30:33] as, as, uh, exemplified by women's right to have abortion.
[00:30:36] And what the fuck is going, it's going on.
[00:30:39] Yeah.
[00:30:40] Uh, and so at, at the end she has to, uh, you know, make a very like impassioned speech,
[00:30:44] uh, about it, uh, against abortion.
[00:30:47] Uh, and she starts talking about the fact that she actually had one.
[00:30:50] Um, right.
[00:30:51] And it seems like that's a made up story in the, in the same vein that Roy Scheider had,
[00:30:56] like, you know, he kind of encourages them to, you know, go for emotion, go for it.
[00:31:00] It seems like she's making up that whole story about how she was raped by a person who worked
[00:31:05] at her father's restaurant and, uh, then had to get an abortion to get rid, get rid of
[00:31:09] the baby.
[00:31:09] Uh, you know, horrifying traumatic story.
[00:31:12] Uh, and then the other team's like, well, we're poking holes in a lot of this, but, but
[00:31:15] like, yeah, funny story lady, settle down.
[00:31:18] And then Kirk Cameron has to come in to save the day.
[00:31:20] He's the closer.
[00:31:21] And then at the end of the movie, he's like, you weren't making that up, were you?
[00:31:23] And she's like, no, I wasn't.
[00:31:25] Yeah.
[00:31:26] Glad you saved that and, uh, told it, shared that story with us.
[00:31:29] And we completely disregarded it.
[00:31:31] Um, cool.
[00:31:33] Yeah.
[00:31:33] And, and used it as like a, an anti abortions creed.
[00:31:36] Um, right.
[00:31:37] Because her friend's death as a person that assaulted her, made her realize that, uh, actually
[00:31:46] every life is good.
[00:31:47] Even the ones that are unborn.
[00:31:49] I don't know.
[00:31:49] Fuck this movie.
[00:31:50] I know it's, it's weird.
[00:31:53] Uh, any other moments or scenes that stand out to you, Mike and, uh, listen to me, anything
[00:31:56] you want to talk about?
[00:31:57] I did want to highlight the first half of the movie.
[00:32:00] I think like you said, has a very different tone.
[00:32:03] Uh, and it feels very weird, uh, or jarring rather between the two halves.
[00:32:08] Once they go to the like national debates, right?
[00:32:10] Or whatever.
[00:32:11] It is suddenly deadly serious.
[00:32:13] They're in front of the next Supreme court justices.
[00:32:15] Yes.
[00:32:15] Uh, they're in New York.
[00:32:17] Uh, Kirk Cameron is riding the subway alone at midnight or whatever.
[00:32:20] Like he's taxi driver.
[00:32:21] You know, like, uh, in, in an army jacket, I think.
[00:32:26] Um, yeah.
[00:32:27] He's doing all that shit.
[00:32:29] And, uh, but the first half is, uh, like, Hey, where's the Rex Henry?
[00:32:33] They're like, Oh, by the pool hall, new guy.
[00:32:35] Right.
[00:32:35] And they're like doing donuts or whatever in the parking lot in the sports car.
[00:32:39] It's like a college hangout comedy for the first half.
[00:32:42] Right.
[00:32:42] And they're like, and that's the half that I was kind of vibing with.
[00:32:45] Like that's kind of fun.
[00:32:46] Makes sense.
[00:32:47] Makes sense.
[00:32:47] Yeah.
[00:32:48] They're, they're goofing around in the debate club, uh, classroom, which is this
[00:32:52] like vertical benches.
[00:32:55] I don't know.
[00:32:55] It's weird.
[00:32:56] Like bleachers, I guess, or whatever.
[00:32:57] And they're like having a goof and they're, they're goofing around about abstinence and
[00:33:01] sex at first sex education.
[00:33:02] And that's when the guy yells out horny.
[00:33:05] Yes.
[00:33:05] And they're talking about lifting cars and all this weird condoms, like balloons and
[00:33:09] toss them around.
[00:33:10] Exactly.
[00:33:11] Yeah.
[00:33:11] Like beach balls.
[00:33:12] Yeah.
[00:33:12] It's wild.
[00:33:13] And then smash cut through Jamie Kurtz monologue about, uh, you know, being a victim of rape
[00:33:17] and all that stuff.
[00:33:18] And you're like, what the fuck is going on?
[00:33:20] Um, so yeah, this movie is insane.
[00:33:22] I think, uh, I think at least we have the John D little straw hat.
[00:33:25] That's about it.
[00:33:27] That's very good.
[00:33:28] Uh, yeah, no, I, I do want to mention that.
[00:33:30] I mean, one thing I liked, uh, there's a marching band version of Pat Benatar's heartbreaker
[00:33:34] that opens the movie, which is kind of fun, which goes to this movie, uh, starts in a
[00:33:40] very different place than it ends.
[00:33:41] Yes.
[00:33:42] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:42] It's doing that.
[00:33:43] Uh, there's this great, this insane line, um, where, uh, Tucker meets Garson for the
[00:33:48] first time.
[00:33:49] And when he meets Garson, he like opens his door to his room and Garson's like sleeping
[00:33:52] with someone like he's, he's having sex on the first day.
[00:33:55] Yeah.
[00:33:55] Actively having sex with this girl.
[00:33:57] And Tucker's like, Oh, I can come back later.
[00:33:59] And Garson's like, no, come on in man.
[00:34:00] Just what's going on.
[00:34:02] Uh, and they're talking and the girl's like, no, come on.
[00:34:05] You gotta make me come.
[00:34:07] And he, and he, and Garson goes, uh, babe, what's one less orgasm next to the threat of
[00:34:13] violence in the middle East.
[00:34:14] It's insane.
[00:34:16] Just insane.
[00:34:18] He's like, you can go finish yourself in your room.
[00:34:21] Toots basically kicks her out.
[00:34:24] Um, it's weird as fuck.
[00:34:28] Uh, yeah.
[00:34:28] So, I mean, just from the beginning and like it's no, it, no one has ever interacted with
[00:34:33] another human who was writing the script.
[00:34:35] Uh, I, I do also want to bring up the, uh, the lifting cars thing.
[00:34:39] Oh, sure.
[00:34:39] Yeah.
[00:34:40] At one point they actually do lift a car.
[00:34:41] He does lift a car cause he's so sexually frustrated.
[00:34:45] He has to take the tension out somewhere by lifting a car.
[00:34:48] Um, and they, the movie treats that as if that's a real thing that like everybody knows
[00:34:53] what that means.
[00:34:53] And like JV Gertz is a prude cause she doesn't understand what he means when he's
[00:34:56] saying that cause she asked the other girl that's on the debate team.
[00:34:59] Like you're, you know what it means when a guy says he lifts cars and she's like, oh,
[00:35:04] yeah, you're so sheltered.
[00:35:05] It means they're what, uh, they got blue balls or whatever.
[00:35:07] They got blue balls or whatever.
[00:35:08] Yeah.
[00:35:08] And you're just like, what, what the fuck?
[00:35:12] Nobody has ever, like you said, nobody that wrote this script, uh, had ever talked to
[00:35:16] another human being.
[00:35:17] Part of it is like, oh, well maybe this is just how kids talked in 1989.
[00:35:20] I don't think they did.
[00:35:21] I don't feel like they did.
[00:35:23] I don't think they did.
[00:35:24] I feel like there are other movies that better capture the teenage experience, uh, than listen
[00:35:28] to me.
[00:35:29] Uh, which is very on a limb and say that's, that's true.
[00:35:32] That's gotta be true.
[00:35:33] And if you see the poster for this on letterboxd, it looks like the poster for breakfast club.
[00:35:37] So like, I feel like they're directly trying to like draw connections there and you're just
[00:35:42] like, no.
[00:35:45] Uh, yes.
[00:35:47] Any other, uh, random bits you want to talk about, Mike?
[00:35:49] I mean, uh, of course we talked about her, uh, speech at the end and then it leads into
[00:35:53] Kirk Cameron speech at the end.
[00:35:54] Oh, well she, yeah.
[00:35:55] Her, her deeply traumatic personal experience is just to set up his Southern yokel draw thing.
[00:36:01] Now it may just be a simple country boy, but it seems to me that America has lost its way.
[00:36:07] Yep.
[00:36:08] Yeah.
[00:36:09] And, uh, you know what I, what I like about this, uh, thing at the end, uh, he has this
[00:36:14] whole speech about why like abortion, he can't like, you know, deny that it's better for health,
[00:36:19] like women's health or anything like that.
[00:36:20] And they do bring up those points with the other team.
[00:36:22] They're like, well, like if you look at all these stats, like this is better.
[00:36:24] It's like, yes, yes.
[00:36:25] But you see morally it's incorrect or something, you know, whatever.
[00:36:28] What's more important is how it makes me a man feel.
[00:36:33] And then they, they presented to the judges.
[00:36:35] There's five judges there.
[00:36:36] I think they are going back and forth.
[00:36:38] It's, it's, it's a classic, like one judge goes to the other team.
[00:36:40] One judge goes for that team.
[00:36:42] They have the woman judge be like, well, by the way, I'm a woman and I'm for abortion,
[00:36:47] but your debate was very strong, son.
[00:36:49] We could go back to old school values.
[00:36:52] I do think we've lost family values in this country.
[00:36:55] And you're like, oh my fucking God.
[00:36:58] Uh, and then of course, Ken Munt wins.
[00:37:00] Uh, and you know, big cheering, Rui Scheider looks up, looks upon them proudly.
[00:37:05] Uh, and then Kirk Cameron and Jamie Gertz, they run, run out the courthouse before the
[00:37:09] press can get to them.
[00:37:10] I don't know why they, I don't know why they would want to skip the press.
[00:37:13] Like they would want to celebrate that moment or whatever, but then they like run out into
[00:37:16] like Washington DC, uh, and they kiss and then the movie ends and then the terror.
[00:37:21] Don't, don't forget about me.
[00:37:23] It starts playing.
[00:37:23] Yeah.
[00:37:24] Well, it's a song that's called listen to me, uh, which played over the opening credits
[00:37:28] as well.
[00:37:28] And it's just a, it's a bad song.
[00:37:30] It's not very good.
[00:37:35] I really enjoyed that.
[00:37:36] That was pretty cool.
[00:37:39] Low down, dirty, no good movie.
[00:37:41] Yeah.
[00:37:41] A really weird, uh, curiosity.
[00:37:43] I'm not upset that I watched it necessarily.
[00:37:46] Uh, cause it was like, oh, it's interesting that this exists.
[00:37:48] Uh, however, uh, I don't endorse it.
[00:37:50] Uh, I don't, I don't waste your time.
[00:37:53] I don't think anybody should watch it.
[00:37:55] No, yes.
[00:37:55] But if you're gonna, it's on YouTube.
[00:37:57] It's, it is available.
[00:37:58] You can't, it is on YouTube.
[00:37:59] So, uh, and there's a lot of comp, like the YouTube video has like over a hundred thousand
[00:38:04] views.
[00:38:05] Like I, something like that.
[00:38:06] People have been watching this movie over the last nine years or something.
[00:38:09] Uh, and there's a lot of comments being like, I had this on VHS back when I was a child
[00:38:13] and I loved it back then, you know, that, that kind of thing.
[00:38:16] Yeah.
[00:38:17] So yeah.
[00:38:18] Uh, that said, not that many people have locked in letterbox.
[00:38:20] Okay.
[00:38:21] Uh, but would you like to hear what the people have to say?
[00:38:24] Yes.
[00:38:24] Listen to me, Mike.
[00:38:25] How many of them were like Dan Schneider?
[00:38:27] Like are so scared that Dan Schneider is in this movie.
[00:38:29] Uh, there's a couple of those.
[00:38:30] I think one of my reviews mentions Dan Schneider.
[00:38:33] Uh, yeah, here's a couple of letterbox reviews, uh, for listen to me before we got this episode
[00:38:37] up.
[00:38:38] Uh, it's a two and a half star review from John Roberts debate team beyond Thunderdome.
[00:38:44] There's a guy in this named Robert Chumbrook Jr.
[00:38:47] And he plays a character known only as horny.
[00:38:52] The Senator's son is named Garson with a G.
[00:38:55] The film is so unbelievably earnest and unintentionally corny.
[00:38:59] I both enjoyed every minute and hated every minute.
[00:39:02] Yeah.
[00:39:02] I wish I had the other half of that where I was like, Oh, you know what?
[00:39:05] This is fun in its corny lameness or whatever, but no, none of that.
[00:39:09] None of that came through for me.
[00:39:10] Yeah.
[00:39:10] Fair enough.
[00:39:11] Uh, here's a two and a half star review from Scott out of that.
[00:39:13] I was hoping this one would pan out a little better than some of the reviews as I had a
[00:39:16] nice cast going for it, but it did deal with the debate team.
[00:39:19] Scheider is the college leader of this debate club that if chosen will debate in front of
[00:39:23] actual Supreme court judges, or I think they said they were, there were only five of them.
[00:39:28] So I wasn't sure.
[00:39:30] You know, good point.
[00:39:31] Yeah.
[00:39:32] Anyways, only the top two students in the debate class are allowed to do it.
[00:39:35] Quill is the big man on campus that will likely be one.
[00:39:37] And then there's room for newbies to take the other spots.
[00:39:40] We get farmer boy, Cameron and upscale Gertz at the top two contenders, but the class is full of
[00:39:44] known faces like Lisa Simpson herself, Yardley Smith, or Christopher Atkins from blue lagoon fame,
[00:39:49] or ever recently canceled Dan Schneider.
[00:39:52] There he is.
[00:39:53] While she is on the poster and fourth build, Amanda Peterson gives a great opening scene as
[00:39:57] a cripple in the class, but then she mostly vanishes.
[00:40:00] They even, she even specifically says in the movie.
[00:40:04] I don't call her that.
[00:40:06] Yeah.
[00:40:07] Okay.
[00:40:07] Anyway.
[00:40:08] Uh, but then she mostly vanishes until the last few scenes.
[00:40:10] Uh, sorry.
[00:40:12] That's so funny.
[00:40:14] Uh, uh, hated Percy.
[00:40:16] Hated this as her character seemed to steal the scene when she showed up and then they
[00:40:20] just forget about her.
[00:40:21] Also, I think this would be, I thought this would be rid of Cameron's crazy modern ass
[00:40:26] thinking, but sadly abortion dominates this film and it only gets worse when their team
[00:40:30] has to debate why it's bad in the finale.
[00:40:32] Uh, also that theme song that both begin and end with is so awful.
[00:40:36] Um, yeah, I guess.
[00:40:38] I don't know.
[00:40:39] Yeah.
[00:40:39] I mean, that is a good point.
[00:40:40] Yeah.
[00:40:40] Amanda Peterson has that one scene where she's, she's introduced and she seems like she's
[00:40:43] going to be a major character at that, at that moment.
[00:40:45] Right.
[00:40:45] It's like, she has this whole thing.
[00:40:47] She's back and forth with Roy Scheider where he's like, he's sort of antagonizing her for
[00:40:51] being handicapped.
[00:40:51] Uh, and she like stands up for herself and it sort of impresses him.
[00:40:55] Right.
[00:40:55] Uh, yeah.
[00:40:56] He, he sort of challenges her on like using her handicap for sympathy and how you sympathy,
[00:41:02] you can't win a debate on sympathy.
[00:41:04] It has to be a fax or whatever, blah, blah, blah.
[00:41:07] Even though they also talk about how much you can manipulate emotions for most this whole
[00:41:11] thing.
[00:41:11] But, um, they fully like win the debate at the end of the movie just based on like,
[00:41:15] well, America's a, you know, it's a melting pot of different ideas.
[00:41:19] Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:20] Uh, but yeah, she's a major character or, or seems like she's going to be, uh, in that
[00:41:24] montage of all of them auditioning.
[00:41:26] And then yeah, she vanishes until they're at the hotel bar at the end when that one guy
[00:41:30] asks her to dance and her heart melts or whatever.
[00:41:34] Uh, her heart grows three sizes that day.
[00:41:37] She leaves debate behind to go be a housewife or something.
[00:41:40] Like, yeah, exactly.
[00:41:41] Yeah.
[00:41:42] Uh, I got one more of you here, Mike.
[00:41:44] It's a three star of you from Tierney Alvin.
[00:41:46] Kirk Cameron at his most annoying.
[00:41:49] Jamie Gertz at her most luminous.
[00:41:51] Roy Scheider at his most leathery.
[00:41:55] I mean, yeah, I guess, uh, the quality of this, uh, this VHS upload onto YouTube made
[00:42:01] it seem like I couldn't particularly tell or just like, I know that that is Roy Scheider's
[00:42:06] voice.
[00:42:06] Yes.
[00:42:07] From this shape.
[00:42:08] I did think he looked, I mean, granted, yeah, it's, it's very poor quality.
[00:42:11] I did think he looked younger in this movie than he did in like Cohen and Tate 52 pickup.
[00:42:16] Yeah.
[00:42:17] Uh, like the last, the last few Roy Scheider movies, uh, where he's kind of been playing
[00:42:20] a more grizzled old man who, uh, you know, is, is, has seniority over everyone else.
[00:42:25] Uh, he's still that in this movie because he's the mentor for all these kids.
[00:42:29] Yeah.
[00:42:29] No, I did think he like looked more like a normal adult, I guess, than an older guy.
[00:42:33] Yeah.
[00:42:34] Yeah.
[00:42:34] I think that might just be the quality of the upload.
[00:42:38] That's totally possible.
[00:42:39] Also, I forget he hooks up with some girl at the, uh, the debate party late, uh, in the
[00:42:43] movie at some point.
[00:42:44] Does he not a student?
[00:42:46] I don't think it was, uh, you know, just this woman who was out also at the party.
[00:42:49] Do you remember that?
[00:42:50] She, he's like, I don't think you see him like hooking up with her, but he definitely
[00:42:53] leaves with this woman.
[00:42:54] I, yes, you're right.
[00:42:55] Yeah.
[00:42:55] Yeah.
[00:42:56] Yeah.
[00:42:56] So good for a weird movie.
[00:42:57] Yeah.
[00:42:58] It's a strange movie.
[00:42:59] I'm glad we're, we're don't have to talk about it anymore.
[00:43:03] Are we now entering the weird nineties?
[00:43:06] Uh, I get, we have one more movie in the eighties.
[00:43:08] I think actually Mike's talking about, uh, three movies in 1989.
[00:43:11] This guy there stops three movies in 1989 after a three year break.
[00:43:15] Uh, that's how Roy Shatter does it.
[00:43:16] Uh, sure.
[00:43:18] Uh, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll mention what that is in just a minute, but Mike D where
[00:43:21] can we find you online this week?
[00:43:22] You can find me at MD film blog on blue sky and letterboxd.
[00:43:27] And if you would like to donate, support the show, you can do that on our Kofi page, which
[00:43:31] is Kofi.com slash Mike and Mike pods.
[00:43:34] Um, which you can also find the show on blue sky, uh, at Mike and Mike pods, because it's
[00:43:39] going to be just one, one account for both Mike and Mike go to the movies and complete
[00:43:42] works.
[00:43:43] So Mike and Mike pods on blue sky.
[00:43:44] And make it as confusing as possible.
[00:43:46] That's the, uh, we're going to add a third and fourth.
[00:43:48] Why not?
[00:43:49] We'll make it crazy.
[00:43:50] Uh, it's all, everything's linked in bios.
[00:43:52] You can find it.
[00:43:53] Yes.
[00:43:54] And, uh, if you would like merch, we have merch available on a red bubble, which is
[00:43:58] Mike and Mike pods dot red bubble.com.
[00:44:00] There you go.
[00:44:00] You can find me online at Emma Smith film blog on Twitter and also on blue sky, Mike
[00:44:04] Smith film and letterboxd and radio, Mike sandwich, Instagram.
[00:44:06] Uh, thank you so much for listening to complete works.
[00:44:08] I'm Mike Smith.
[00:44:08] It's my decree show.
[00:44:09] Don't forget to rate interview the show on Apple podcasts or any other podcast app.
[00:44:13] And if you want to contact us, you can tweet at us at complete works by the W R K S no
[00:44:17] Oh, and the word works.
[00:44:18] You can find the rest of our podcast and rapture press alongside many other podcasts, all kinds
[00:44:22] of comic books and movie news and all that good stuff.
[00:44:24] Our theme song was created by Kyle Cullen, who you can reach for your own podcast themes
[00:44:28] at Kyle's podcast themes at gmail.com.
[00:44:30] And our logo was designed by Mac V or at fearless guard on Twitter.
[00:44:34] Next week, Roy Scheider stars in a slasher movie called night game, which is about a hook
[00:44:39] handed serial killer whose murders coincide with nighttime baseball games.
[00:44:43] The Houston Astrodome.
[00:44:46] That is the, the, the most ad lib throw things at a dark word.
[00:44:53] Uh, I don't know.
[00:44:54] It's about a, it's a slasher, but he kills them with a hook at night at the Astro though.
[00:45:00] All right, cool.
[00:45:02] I'm in, I'm in, let's go.
[00:45:03] Yeah.
[00:45:03] I mean, you and I are both pretty big fans of 80s slashers.
[00:45:06] Uh, there are certainly a lot of bad ones, uh, as well.
[00:45:08] This could be one of those that got bad reviews when it came out.
[00:45:10] Uh, but a lot of those ones that got bad reason that came out have sort of been reclaimed
[00:45:14] in the years since.
[00:45:15] Uh, so is this one of them?
[00:45:17] We'll find out.
[00:45:19] I hope this is a never forget what they took for West moment.
[00:45:21] Oh man.
[00:45:22] If I, if I get like better cinematography in night game than I do in wicked or something.
[00:45:28] Yeah.
[00:45:29] I'm going to be so mad.
[00:45:30] Uh, all right.
[00:45:31] Remember to check out our other podcasts.
[00:45:33] Mike, let me go to the movies for all kinds of other movie related stuff, including
[00:45:36] recent releases, ranked lists, general discussions, and a lot more.
[00:45:39] What are you laughing about?
[00:45:40] So sorry.
[00:45:41] I just looked up the poster for this movie and it's a hook prosthetic, right?
[00:45:45] For somebody that would have their arm removed, uh, hooked through a baseball, like
[00:45:48] a baseball, like speared on it.
[00:45:50] Uh, and the tagline is when it comes to murder in ain't over till it's over, which is a Yogi
[00:45:55] Barrett quote, uh, which is fucking incredible.
[00:45:59] Three strikes.
[00:46:00] You're dead.
[00:46:03] I, um, I am, I am.
[00:46:06] I'm calling my shot.
[00:46:07] Like Babe Ruth calling his home run shot.
[00:46:09] Yeah.
[00:46:09] This is my personality now.
[00:46:12] Should we, should we try to get a producer Colin on the show since he's such a big baseball
[00:46:16] guy?
[00:46:16] Absolutely.
[00:46:17] This is the most Colin thing I've ever heard.
[00:46:20] Let's, uh, let's contact Colin and see if he's available next week.
[00:46:23] Talk about night game.
[00:46:23] I think that'd be a lot of fun.
[00:46:24] That would be incredible.
[00:46:25] Uh, all right.
[00:46:26] Thanks so much for listening guys.
[00:46:27] And thanks for becoming a Hollywood insider.
[00:46:30] Thanks for listening.
[00:46:30] Bye.
[00:46:31] Bye.
[00:46:31] Bye.
[00:46:31] Bye.