Ep. 17 - All That Jazz (1979)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Showtime Folks!

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Some bad had hairings.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I was the way to the car when you got it at...

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know right from room?

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You're just no kidding.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But wait, oh, some some good shit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh and welcome to Episode 17 of The Complete Works Season 4,

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: A deep dive into the career and films of actor Roy Scheider.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Mike Smith and join me on this journey across the Scheiderverse,

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Is my friend, co-host, and fellow Roy Boy.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike Trisha?

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Had you to do it, Mike?

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing great. It's an exciting day here in Roy Boy Town.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Question for that.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not sure.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You could say the Scheider for it.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I could say the Scheider for it.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It's an exciting day here in the Scheider-Rose.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it is. I mean for a few reasons.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You know today we are closing out the 1970s.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Well this is the last film in Roy Scheider's 1970s run

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and what a pretty unbelievable run of movies.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: This has been, has it not Mike?

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: From relative obscurity to you know,

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: best Oscar nominated performances.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So there are definitely good movies still on the horizon.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The Scheiders don't say it like that.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I was kind of don't believe you when you phrase it that way.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's weird like now.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like people kind of talk about Scheiders like photography is being like,

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah almost every one of his great movies is in the 1978 fair.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah true.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there are still movies coming up that I'm excited to talk about like 2010.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: For example, I'm excited to see Blue Thunder that movie looks awesome

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and Michigan Life and Four chapters coming up, naked lunch, lot of cool stuff.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Still the come.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But the 70s are really filled with several all-time reclassics.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Like Clutes, the French connection, jaws, marathon man, sorcerer,

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: plus you know a bunch of lesser known but still great movies like The Seven Ups or

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Sheila Levine is dead in living in New York or last in brace.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: All that stuff right Mike?

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah it's been a lot of discoveries for us which has been very fun.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes absolutely, but that 70s run concludes with another enduring classic.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: One of I think the most nakedly self-reflective films ever made.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: This movie was the co-winner of the Palm Door at the 1980 Cannes Film Festival.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It tied actually alongside Akira Kurosawa's Kagamusha.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah that actually used to happen fairly frequently at the Cannes Film Festival

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: where a movie would tie for the Palm Door.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That hasn't happened in a very long time.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just gonna ask, has that allowed?

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Were they allowed to do that?

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It was allowed it happened I mean I guess you know it's a small jury of people

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and so if they're votes tied then there is tied.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the last time it happened was in 1993.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I was looking at it before which was when the piano won.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it with her speed?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That would have been a year ahead.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Borrowed a year to speed's festival debut.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been the Cannes Film Festival.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I know the piano was one of the winners I don't remember which the other one was.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah this movie was the co-winner of the Palm Door.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And a nine-time Oscar nominee including a best actor nod for Roy Shireder.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And since he's in it we've got to talk about all that jazz.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Candy Casey very good.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna do it again Victoria.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop smiling it's not the high school play count.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: A five six seven eight one.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: All that work.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Stand on your right foot.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What you left of?

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Chil.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: All that play.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what is this?

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Um well I do I hate Chilpus.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: All that culture.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: All that culture.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Chilpus what I mean.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You love Chilpus.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I love Chilpus.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: All that love.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: How go it away?

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Chilpus.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: All that jazz.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So to talk about all that jazz is to really get into the career of its director Bob Fasi.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike are you familiar with the films of the life of Bob Fasi at all?

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Um not particularly more just by like in name like I have a way where if we Bob Fasi is and sort of his legacy a little bit but

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know many particulars or could even name another movie that he directed off the top of my head.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Gotcha yeah well I grew up I was in theater sort of I mean I was the sound guy for my high school drama club.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh so I was pretty adjacent to theater but I heard this name a lot.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah back then so Bob Fasi one of the most influential figures in theater at the 20th century.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He was an actor a director a choreographer a dancer a writer did it all and he did it.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well forging a very distinctive instantly recognizable style the original runs of plays like how to succeed in business that really trying and

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Pippin and Chicago especially Chicago are very steeped in Bob Fasi and he also worked in film throughout the 50s as an actor and choreographer.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately pivoted into directing making his directorial debut in 1969 with sweet charity which is a film adaptation of a musical that he also directed.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh sweet charity I think best remember there's a song hey big spender which is from that movie.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh really from that musical interesting yes there you go the movie itself got mixed reviews by his next film was cabaret and that was a huge hit.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: One Bob Fasi the Oscar for best director in 1972 beating out Francis Ford Copeland for the godfather.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: What a weird thing yes even though the godfather one best picture Bob Fasi one best director for cabaret sure I guess.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and you know it's a weird thing where I think we talked about this little bit with William Freak in where he sort of saw Francis Ford Copeland as a rival filmmaker.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh Bob Fasi also saw Francis Ford Copeland.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a rival filmmaker and I think was like you know even though he won the best director Oscar was still like pretty peeps at the godfather one everything else that year.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems the film industry as a whole sees Francis Ford Copeland as a rival like just every story you read about megalopolis being like,

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what's going on just got deserves it you know.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's how it's happening yes very very weird all that jazz is a semi autobiographical look at Bob Fasi's life in the years after that while he was in post production on his Lenny Bruce biopic Lenny while simultaneously directing Chicago before we're set to open on Broadway and having a heart attack going through surgery right in the middle of it all so everything in the movie is kind of a very very thinly veiled.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh skies of like that's all just stuff that happened in Bob Fasi's life.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That's wild because that's also just the plot of this movie.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Even the movie that he's editing in this is just the movie Lenny but just it's called the stand up right?

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all the same.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And Roy Scheider plays the lead role of the films about Fasi stand-in Jo Gideon and young Jo Gideon is played in flashbacks by Keith Gordon which makes this.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It jaws to reunion Mike.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and unlikely Jo is to reunion I was not prepared.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes actually there's a few a shadow reunions that pop up in this movie in bit parts mostly but we'll talk about that in the sec.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Gideon's life is defined in this film by the three women in his life.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Audrey Paris has ex-wife and also the film stand-in for Gwen Verdone kind of the famous relationship between Bob Fasi and Gwen Verdone which then became an FX mini series a few years ago.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I do remember that.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That show like it's about their whole relationship and their whole kind of working career.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I never watched it.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Sam Rockwell plays Bob Fasi and Michelle Williams plays Gwen Verdone and there is like at least an episode or two dedicated to the making of all that jazz.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm looking up now because I want to make sure that I'm right.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Linne and Mel Miranda plays Roy Scheider in the show.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes sure I guess.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he's good.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah maybe I haven't seen the show.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah just a weird thing that happened.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But there you go.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah she isn't then we play by Leland Palmer.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: No relation to Laura Palmer's father in Cranfix.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Just Leland Palmer.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Then Katie Jagger, his girlfriend is played by Anne Rynking who was also Bob Fasi's real life girlfriend at the time and his daughter Michelle is played by Ayres about Fultie.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Shader also spends the film periodically talking to Angelique, the Angel of Death played by Jessica Lang who before this had actually only been in the 1977 remix of King Kong.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That was her only film roll up to this point.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah she's so good in that too.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: She, uh, in King Kong?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I've never seen the 70s King Kong.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty good okay.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Added to the list.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm like, let's my gosh.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: From there Cliff Gorman who is also in Mike D's favorite movie angel.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You, you know I noticed him.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He plays Davis Newman the stand up Ben Vareen who played Judas in the original run of Jesus Christ superstar on Broadway.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He plays O'Connor Flo the TV host.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got another Roy Shader reunion as Max Wright who also appeared in last embrace plays Joshua Penn.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Deborah Gephner who recently popped up in Maxine as the casting director for Puritan 2 plays Victoria Porter a dancer.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that's fun.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just like, oh cool.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She's still working.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She's still doing stuff Anthony Holland who also played an actor's agent in Clute.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's another reunion in there plays Paul Dan and David Margallis also from last embrace plays Larry Goldies.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So a few people that are popping up in previous Shader movies here.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We've also got an early John Lithgow appearance as a movie star.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually I believe this is 84 or actually oh no never mind.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I was about to say this the same year as Buckaroo Banzai but it's not Buckaroo Banzai is 84 this is 79.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That would be fun.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That'd be very cool.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah John Lithgow plays Lucas Sargent a rival director to Joe Gideon.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Real life stage manager Phil Friedman plays Murray Nathan the stage manager for the show.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: A young CCH pounder appears as nurse Blake Tito Goya also who was also in marathon man plays an attendant.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Vicky Frederick from the movie version of a chorus line plays Manage Partner number one.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So great title to have.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Walla Shawn in conceivable plays an assistant insurance man and finally, Sandal Bergman the female lead of Conan the Barbarian appears as one of the dancers.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I was like is that Sandal Bergman what's happening?

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they do like they all say their names and she says your name is Sandal and I was like that's incredible.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got to be hurt.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So just using their real names there.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so the film was written by Robert Allen Arthur and Bob Fasi Arthur actually died about a year before this film was released.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was directed by Bob Fasi five years after his previous film Lennie and four years before his next and final film.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: In 1983 star 80 which is about the death of playboy playmate Dorothy Stratton which I've not seen I've heard it's wild I've heard it's an insane movie.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_02]: All that jazz was released on December 20th, 1979 number one of the box office that weekend was Star Trek the motion picture.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And real likes methods no it's the best one it's very good.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We already went through the years top 10 last week but the Kramer versus Kramer was number one for the year and it beat all that jazz for best picture at the Oscars.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So the best picture line up was all that jazz Kramer versus Kramer apocalypse now breaking away and Norma Ray which I do like that you know considering about Fasi and for Copa were sort of rivals.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny that all that jazz and apocalypse now were up against each other at the Oscars again.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah both like deeply personal madman projects.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes like almost killed their drink well I don't know if all that jazz was killed him but there's that history you know yes yeah absolutely he almost died right before he made all that.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly it's it's actually amazing he didn't die the second all that jazz finished.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like weirdly poetic for the the was it the co-writer that died a year before the movie came out like to die mid production of this movie.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Right like yeah strange like you watch all that jazz and you're like well this must be about Fasi's final film and it's weird that he is one more after this.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know and he in fact lived like seven more years I think he died in 87 88 something like that.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow so yeah he was still he was still around after this maybe he truly did change his ways at least a little bit the reflection of this movie may be caused me do that not entirely sure but yeah all that jazz apocalypse now breaking away Norma Ray Kramer versus Kramer were your best picture line up for 1979.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Similarly Roy Scheider lost best actor to Dustin Hoffman for Kramer for the Scraimer the other nominees were Jack Lemon in the China syndrome Al Pacino in and Justice for all and Peter sellers for being there which that's that's a pretty great performance that's very good.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's it. So I've seen Kramer versus Kramer all that jazz and being there and I would say I mean I think Peter sellers is amazing and being there.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to give it a shot or shot is amazing and this myth yeah, but this was the last time Roy Scheider would ever actually get an Oscar nomination or any major awards consideration for that matter although he did once.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Nab in indie spirit award nomination in 1997 for his work in the myth of fingerprints so we'll get to that one down the line. I'm sure he was very honored to be not.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the movie was also nominated for best director best original screenplay and best cinematography and it won best art direction best costume design best film editing and best original score which if it didn't win best film editing I feel like there should have been a riot in the streets right.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, burn it down. If that didn't win they should have invented a best choreography category and then canceled it the next year because nothing whatever.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Come close right yeah exactly. The IM Dbe plots and offices for all that jazz reads director slash choreographer Bob Fasi tells his own life story as he details the sorted career of Joe Giddy and a womanizing drug using dancer.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so my D you had never seen all that jazz before correct. I had seen it once before and in fact actually just watched it last year. It was the first movie in movie day 2023

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Which for those who are unfamiliar is my annual day where I wake up and do nothing but watch movies until I go back to sleep at night.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like any other day honestly. Well, truly yes, but this this one special because I planted out and I kind of worked through my blue right collection and all that kind of stuff.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I watched all that jazz on that day it was the first movie I watched and it was a media like well yeah this is a masterpiece and every movie that I'm watching afterwards feels like a little bit less good as a result.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely. I watched all that jazz and then followed up with psycho too which. Psycho too pretty good.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just it's no all that jazz. Just no all that jazz but yes you had never seen this for Mike so what were you expecting going into all that jazz and what had you heard about the movie up until this point and what are your overall thoughts on this movie.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and heard about it obviously it's you know a cannon canonical picture but I don't remember exactly where I heard it most recently.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Where the person was talking about it as this kind of towering one of a kind just like masterpiece and then and it's I guess it's sort of usually talked about in those terms but I don't know there is the way this person and I can't wish I could remember who it was.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The way they talked about it really like huh, peace my interest a little bit more than just like you know we talk about sometimes more on Mike Michael to the movies the bonus episodes where we're like yeah you know it's one of the best movies ever I'll get to it eventually you know whatever that might be you know it.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be great. Yeah, you know so there's a little bit less of a fire sometimes for those movies but the way this person talked about it I was like huh maybe I am into it to our last national a little bit you kind of thing.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So I was very excited when I finally got to push play for this episode and I only watched it yesterday so I don't have very many like fully formed thoughts because it is definitely a movie to be experienced and to wrestle with.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But it is fucking incredible. Oh my god. I mean, I wasn't sure I mean it's amazing it's fun it's exciting it's interesting the editing is probably the coolest shit I've ever seen in a movie you know it's one of those things that is just just.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_03]: The kinetic isn't quite the right term. I don't know even know how to describe it it's just amazing and it's one of those things that you're like sitting there and you're like hmm.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And these guys the best filmmakers all time maybe like yeah, I don't understand just the way everything really coalesces and really tells the story and the emotions and conveys all that stuff that you can feel our deeply deeply personal and tendo that the story so closely mirrors Fossi's real life and that sort of the thing that I also heard about a lot to before this movie.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's just to make it it's one of those things that kind of like makes you recalibrate what you are aware that movies can do.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, okay yeah like out of the like the first two thirds or so are interesting and exciting and the the the you know choreography of the the the the the the the scenes of rehearsing.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The first place and you know there's lots of choreography lots of performances are great the personal like emotional moments of the real life stuff are amazing.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's of course intercut with all these things where I was like is that just a blank what is that like what's you know it's become pretty clear what's going on in those scenes pretty quickly.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that is this sort of like.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But then he goes to the hospital and isn't that is in that coma or whatever post the surgery or in the final act basically.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And all of a sudden the clap board is showing up and they're like okay ready to do the hospital who's nation scenes okay roll.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and it's like what is going and that's the last 20 minutes of the movie or just this out of body experience you know other world the after life whatever it is.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was just like transfixed and like holy shit this is amazing I don't know I was really really blown away with blown away by it for that last acting particular the first two acts are still great but it's a much more like conventional funny movie.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And also powerful and intense, but I think.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a better like this watch.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's such a I think the last like half hour works so well because the first hour and half or so good and like kind of you complete picture of who this person is.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Gideon aka Bob Fasi and yeah, I don't know I think it's it's such a weirdly like.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many movies I think where director will like kind of reflect back on like you know something that happened in their life and like kind of tell their life story through film.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's something that you know we talked about a lot kind of recently I feel like I've mentioned this movie a few times in the season of the podcast but the fablements.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Stephen Spielberg's The Fatal Men's which came out a couple years ago and I really love that movie and I like other movies kind of of that ilk but.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think what's kind of separates all that jazz from so many of those other ones is that so many of those other ones are kind of telling the childhood story they're looking back way way far like in the past to kind of tell.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The story of how we got to where we are today or all that kind of stuff and all that jazz is telling a very up close.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a very like up close and personal look at like who I am now like Bob Fasi like you know dealing with everything that it's all stuff that happened to him in the last couple of years.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just like things that are immediately happening to him and so I was curious how you would react to it just because I figured you might not know like his whole.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: All the back stories surrounding you know Bob Fasi's career and all that kind of stuff and like and I was aware of that going into all that jazz the first time I watched this as like well I see the parallels here where like.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know he directed the movie Lennie and so this stand up is here as a kind of the stand in for that and like the musical that he's doing is the standing for Chicago and all that kind of stuff.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So were you like oh I mean you kind of picked that up from context or how do you know yeah I mean I knew that it was sort of.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Thinly like you said thinly veiled retelling of whatever kind of thing and so I didn't know like the specifics of like oh the stand up is supposed to be Lennie and that movie is supposed to be or the play is supposed to be camera or Chicago whatever it was.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Right but like I just kind of knew he was also a filmmaker and a stage director and you must have this kind of thing like you know you'd be doing both of these things at the same time and just sort of picking up on that.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You know I don't I didn't know the specific oh this girlfriend is supposed to be this real life person and this the wife is supposed to be like you know that kind of thing.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So I didn't know they're like needy-gritty details of it but you can kind of just sort of just tell.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You know yeah.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Throughout the movie where it's like oh yeah this is somebody that is these things are this is real it's it's wild.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that comparison to or to like draw that distinction between a lot of movies that are like the self reflective kind of working through something on screen for a lot of filmmakers when they make these sorts of movies like he said to go back to childhood or go back to whatever and for this to.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You can you can feel.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: The human artistic impulse of Bob Fasi like I almost just died I must tell this story like you must create this art in order to process this and you can really feel that.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think through like ever the whole movie is just this like this like vitalness that like I must get this out of me kind of thing.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean if you're so uncompromising I think because Joe Gideon who is the clear Bob Fasi standing is portrayed as often such a piece of shit.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah like he's such an asshole to everyone around him and everyone like basically tolerates him because he is a genius at what he does.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and it's a weird like you know I think if you work in theater or you work in like kind of the arts spaces or that kind of thing.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You find those kind of like very strong personalities every once in a while where like this person's brilliant at what they do they're one of the best in the business they're unbelievable.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're awful to everyone around them.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But like everybody sticks around because it's like well yeah we get to be part of Chicago you know we get to be part of this thing that is like you know touched by Joe Gideon and it's like made better.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's so many scenes this movie there's a one that really stuck out to me this time is there's a moment where the guy like financing the movie that he's making is like kind of just going off on Joe and being like hey man like you were like five months overdue the studio is so mad

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We got to do all these things like you got to finish and Joe Gideon's like like in the background like editing the film like not listening to it all and then as soon as you stop talking he gets up is like okay hey I got a run but hey listen I've made some changes let me know what you think that he walks away and starts watching it is better.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely yeah he's mad about the time sheets and you're on your fifth month of triple time what the fact that get all this stuff with the character and it steves is the the bond company stage right there.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's what that's still it man. Yeah, and yeah he just has that that like fuck it's better like that's such a good delivery.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah that's so great. I know that scene that really stood out to me this time too is the scene where he is talking to is that he's like he and his ex wife are arguing while she's like rehearsing something like she's doing a dance and she doesn't stop doing the answer all while they're arguing.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and there's going back and forth and back and forth and he's like talking about cutting the song and the guy who wrote the song is like very in the rooms like we're like are you gonna cut like he's so mad and it's like no keep playing keep playing.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they're just arguing back and forth for a long time until eventually he realizes like yeah she's right and then walks away and then just her like ex aspiration as soon as he leaves the room.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because she can't show that while he's there but we'll have one kind of thing like that you know it's it's there so many like perfectly realize relationships between the characters and this movie that I love.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god, the one scene with the daughter when they're he's like helping her or she's helping him like you're trying to crack a choreography thing or whatever.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, while they're just having like a really like personal and deep like father daughter moment when he's been she's like can you please remarry like I want to brother and I think you'll be happy and all this stuff.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And she asked I'm like what about that blonde and Philadelphia with the TV show and like that's who the girlfriend when they're having like the dance fight.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Right or dance argument and she's like what's the name of that blonde and Philadelphia with the TV and he just can't remember it and that's when he realizes like yeah you're right I'm just going back I'm just feeling like a womanizer.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just incredible it's all it's also it it all feels so grounded until that third act you know, but but also so heightened I don't know I don't really even know how to describe the the tone does movie manages to achieve and have it feel.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Like perfect like you know it doesn't feel silly doesn't feel like over the top or can't be or anything like that it is just all like completely totally earnest even the surreal afterlife act.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually feels feels like yeah this was what he would be seeing it's he dies, you know.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean because everything because it's sort of a musical like the movie is kind of a musical event but it's like sort of in a weird like you know it's a very like theatrical film in a certain sense.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But like that first like hour and a half our is very grounded and like every musical sequence you see is usually like you know a practice or rehearsal or like I think the big thing is like the eroticos sequence which is so funny.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And makes me believe like whatever musical he's doing like the dancing is amazing but like that concept so stupid.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I loved like it made me understand when everyone saw the performance of Cabaret at the Tony's this year and everyone was freaked out by it.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And everyone was like that's what Cabaret is supposed to be like and then I saw the erotic performance in this and I was like I get whenever everybody was like.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03]: He's moving you know why is he always so obsessed with the sex stuff right with all the producers keep saying.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and like the producers unmodified by what they're seeing but like that's like kind of the biggest performance you see up until like the afterlife sequence right the purgatory sequence stuff.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and everything before that is like you know usually done in dance studios or rehearsals or you know there's the sequence where like his girlfriend Katie and his daughter like kind of like do it in prompt to sort of dance for him.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh god, that's incredible.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's so so good love that but then once you get to the afterlife sequence like there is like an added production value to it all it is like it really feels like a big like stage production and you're seeing more like it kind of adds to the surreality of it all.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and you see like like I said you see the clap board you see this the state like the sound stage there and you see you see shiter directing.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, stuff yeah.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You see in the like the crane chair the camera and all that you know.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah it's like sort of just like acknowledges that you are artificiality of the whole thing and yeah up until then it's been very grounded and like you said you're seeing the performances in rehearsals and stuff.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And even just down to the open credits for like the cool shit I've ever seen like I don't know if you're going to regret it's but uh the opening montage where there are like it's basically just him like a bit of an audition right.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a different yeah yeah people are trying out for like dance parts and the in the play that he's doing.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the song that's playing as George Benson on Broadway just perfect like backdrop to it all and yeah there's so many just like insane editing moves in that first five minutes alone.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There's one shot that really stood out to me where I mean I guess several shots but it's all like spliced together were like a dancer starts spinning and you see like ten dancers like spin like in the same shot kind of like yeah they're all it's all matched together.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all match cuts where it's and it's like a perfect seamless motion of like ten different dancers spinning in ones and man it's so good.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Fuck baby.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's the movies, you know.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I even love that the title uh car is just like this you know the big lights and it's like like a Broadway song.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't I think of the word what's the what goes on the front of a service theater Markey Markey there we go.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought Kiosk and I got stuck.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a bring Broadway Markey you know all and all lights and everything is just like here we go and then it opens with with Gideon doing the it's show time folks from our opening song.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_03]: From our opening song it's from that enough from this and and it just starts you know it's just like and then we're off to the races and yeah that whole addition montage is amazing.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a like the movie reflects the like in balance of his life of having to be doing these crazy additions be doing rehearsals be doing choreography and then also just sitting in an editing bay and just like I just watching this other movie.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a weird it and it works like it all works so we're next and I love every time you come back to the editing bay like everyone else is like yeah I think it's fine.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's good enough it'll do and then you know shatters just like you know in a existential having a crisis over the movie which I mean Lenny I haven't haven't seen Lenny but got mixed reviews like it's definitely not considered one of his better films.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that was definitely a factor into you know the reception of Lenny kind of led into the heart attack and cabaret and all that kind of stuff but.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's that's I think played in here too where you do have the film critic talking about the stand up and just kind of roasting Bob Fasi or Joe Gideon in that scene sort of kills him right in like this.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And like he fears that man review and dies.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: That's basically I mean that whole the final act the afterlife stuff is just like transcendent movie making basically.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah I love that you know every one of like the three women the his ex wife his girlfriend and his daughter like all get their own kind of spotlight song.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kind of singing about him and like what he means to them and like what he has to do to change and all that like everyone gets their own spotlight moments and amazing dance performance and all that stuff and then when he he's like he sort of wakes up from that.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he wakes up and then he like is in the hospital and is like having these kind of weird episodes.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then kind of like goes back into the coma, slips back into it and then the TV host that he's been watching in the hospital.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've been through and introduced him and does the whole thing and it's it's basically like his his death number his closing number.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's it's a song called Bye Bye Life and it's astounding. It's amazing Jesus and I've up to this point.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Re�hider has not sung in the movie at all.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like the only time you actually see Roy Shader like perform music in the movie.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think Re�hider in general is like a musical guy that's what he was gonna ask.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we know he has a theatrical background.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, stage background, you know, does he a song and dance guy?

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that doesn't seem like it.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he is but I think the kind of just felt like he was the right person for the role he in it.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: He's amazing in it.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, and so he really only performs music in this moment.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he crushes it he's amazing.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, he's getting a lot of help from like there's a lot of dancers around him and there are a lot of singers.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of other singers too, but you know he's at the center of it all and yeah he has just some amazing moments in it.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the whole by-by-life sequence is just like it's just such a good punch.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so great.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Fuck man.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was just amazing and I feel like I've heard that song before and I don't really know where I would have heard that song.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It is sort of a, it's like a parody of a different song.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye love.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: By the unreliable others.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: If that's maybe, I don't know if that's not my head.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That's probably what I've heard then.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, that whole sequence is great and it sounds like he's singing like actually him.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it is.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so he's doing a good job.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He's doing the dancing and everything. He's doing the choreo and yeah, just it's just like it is such a fascinating, exuberant moment and to have like, and the song is incredible.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And then like you actually listen to the lyrics and you're like, wait, like I think I'm going to die by-by-by-life goodbye.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, hold on, it's like it.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But it is so upbeat and like major key or whatever.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's such a blast and then him going out of the audience and saying goodbye to all the characters in the movie.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, everybody in the audience is somebody who's in the movie already, right?

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, which is awesome.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And then yeah, just that hard cut.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I forget exactly what moment it happens in the song and then just hard cut to them zipping a body bag and you're like,

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa, and then cut to credit.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, shit!

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Cut to credit.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's with the song, what give my regards to Broadway or something like that.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no business like show business is the song that plays over the credits which is a perfect touch to it.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a perfect like cynical touch to the whole thing.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and it feels like it is a miracle that Bob Fasi did not hand this movie complete and then die immediately because it feels like that would be what's going on.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you feel you could feel that sort of energy.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I guess seven years is a nice number of years but it's not a much not a very long life after the end of this movie.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But you can feel that and it is one of those just incredible moments that somebody is able to us so honestly and openly think about death in this sort of fashion and their own death.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Face that mortality.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And think about like that experience that they had and be like, I should have died there.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like that should have been where my life ended for some reason it didn't.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I have to make this like just import it all into this movie as what it sounds like.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but to think about how it's very shiner in this movie is pretty good.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, yeah.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean we talked about it, I guess last episode about a camera or a screener but like what do we even do in here?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Come on.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, here's the thing, Kramer is a Scraper also a good movie.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's actually, it's very good.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I like Kramer a lot but it is one of those things where like this year, like this best picture line up the 1979 line up you got to

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Pocalypse now and all that jazz either one of them would be like absolutely like this feels right.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like the most daring, innovative, interesting cinema that came out this year.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And Kramer was a huge hit and was a solid like a family drama, you know?

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was a much more commercially accessible movie than either of these two movies.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's probably what I want.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's good too but it's just, no, it's not all that jazz.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_03]: No, all that jazz.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm sure Justin Hoffman is great but he's no Roy Scheider in all that jazz.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and wasn't he Lenny Bruce, right?

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So like that's a weird thing.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's often, yeah, that's true.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and George Schetterness and Hoffman also co-star together in marathon man.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, connections and angel was in jazz too.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And the detective was in this.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're rounding up people from angel.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's nice on the Roy Scheider podcast.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: In addition to Joe Spanell watch it's also angel action.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Season 5 will be very kill-hune.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Can't wait.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Roy Scheider is amazing on this movie.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think he, he, he, he, it's such a go for broke performance from him.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's so different than everything we've seen him do up to this point.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, where I think up to this point he is largely been playing.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's had a pretty wide range as an actor but he kind of slats very easily into those like kind of cop roles,

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of sort of tough guy roles.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But usually, or a tough guy role that shows you like a sense of a sense of compassion or something like

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: John with a code or something.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or yeah, sorcerer like those kind of like, you know, paranoid breakdown stuff they

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: guess to do and I mean, there's a little bit of that in this movie too.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know, this, this is just a very like, this feels like as close to real life as movies can get, you know,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: we were like, yeah.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, it feels less like a movie and more like a documentary about Bob Fasi.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's obviously like a fictionalization of everything going around on around him.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But like barely.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: We've, we've changed it and we have respect for the dead.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: We kept everything else the same.

[00:36:36] Yeah.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know. I think I think it is a weirdly similar performance in terms of maybe

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: character to a lot of the other movies like he is still like a sex god.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He's always like just the honky is tongue.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He's always very sarcastic and a lot of his, you know, or dry rather in a lot of his other performances

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and that definitely comes through here.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But it has that added element of being a real guy basically, you know, directed by that guy, which is crazy to think about.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I wonder how Shader like got to this.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I know I wish I had done a lot more research because it seems like it must have been fascinating to go from, you know,

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_03]: more cop, thriller, paranoia, action-y type things into this song and dance real life guy, you know, by the way.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, yeah, absolutely. I think Shader like really captures the exhaustion that like Bob Gettin has kind of gone through.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean he's so like there's a burning the candle at both end elements to everything he's doing and that's partially because

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: he's in post-production on a movie and he's added and he's directing choreographing another show.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But also trying to kind of balance his family life a little bit.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: He has a girlfriend and he has his daughter all that stuff and his ex-wife is in the show that he's directing.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many things that are like pulling him apart at once.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so throughout the movie, you have these like sequences where like every time he wakes up he kind of goes through the same routine

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: where he's in the shower and then he like does eye drops and he takes pills and all that stuff.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: He does the, you know, it's show time folks.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But every time he does it he looks like a little more tired.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and eventually he stops saying show time folks. He's just doing hand motion to his.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, yeah. Like wow. Yeah, and he looks a little more tired and he looks a more exhausted and like I think by the end like he has like a weird like kind of greenish tent to his face.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, make up effects are like pretty intense.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so it really feels like this guy is going to drop at a moment's note.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then he does exactly.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a couple times.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that that sequence actually when they're doing the table read for the plays, like pretty amazing.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_03]: The first joke happens and everybody like, oh, big up glorious laugh.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and just all the sound cuts out other than whatever Joe is like doing with his hands.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He's like tapping the table or like scooting in his seat and you hear all that.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the only thing you hear like he's just hyper fixated.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Not paying attention at all and then all of a sudden he looks up in their done.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just like I don't know, it's just like a perfect like panic attack kind of moment he's going through and the chainsmoking like that opening.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Montage, he's chainsmoking and then he's in the shower and he realizes he's still got the cigarette and his mouth.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He's like, yeah, he's like, not again. I did that again. Like come on.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just smoking. It's the pills. It's the booze.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He's doing everything that you can.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and everyone's now kind of flashes back to Joe's earlier life where he's kind of like raised in a brothel and all that stuff right?

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he's talking to the angel of death about that just going.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, she's there. So that's all those sequences are incredible too. Like yeah, no absolutely. That's so good.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, when it all finally like kind of builds up to this moment where he has the heart attack goes in the hospital.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then that's like the halfway point of the movie and then the rest of it is you know Joe in the hospital sort of trying to get better but also like not really taking it all that seriously.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, they have them whom we're like the doctors have like a big conference about him.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're like he seems to be ignoring every advice we get like he doesn't care if he lives or dies.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and they tell him like, oh, you need to get exercise, you need to be caught or the first that's you need to recover and like take it easy and then it's cutting to him having parties and good go go girls and like they're doing dance numbers together and so in the hospital room.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in the hospital room.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I forget what happens but they eventually he comes down.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, the cuts back to you angel death stuff like the sort of purgatory or whatever he's in are amazing.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I don't know, they're so good and I think it is weirdly the design for that set is fascinating because it is it's got like stuff from the movie in it.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like just in the back like it's just like they're in a warehouse sort of you know we're looking at a store room and there's like characters like the doctors just standing on stage in the background while they're having a talk because he's thinking about the doctor and they're after

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_03]: life or whatever or what it when he has the surgery, the bypass surgery.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It becomes like a voodveil show with the three doctors and his girlfriend is like, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben and they're like doing the whole thing.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, it's just just wild.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I also really like how no nonsense the doctor is like his main cardiologist.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You will die.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, he's like listen, you can leave.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're going to die if you do.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, you too come with me and like, yeah.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I got rules.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, this guy's great in this movie.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, John was only in like two or three scenes but I really love his he's like the second best director.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in theater right now behind Joe Gideon and like you can tell how much that eats at him the entire time.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That one scene when the woman comes to get his autograph is funny.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So give my favorite director after Joe Gideon.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, your last show is a flop.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He just like underlines the autograph like that.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So good.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: For then John let's go in the after life scene too.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, yeah, it's sort of like a passing of the torch to him or something right?

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he shows off.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember exactly what it is but he's in there.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It's basically the end of a kiss kiss back back.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So he's like,

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Can they eat ever now?

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_03]: He does the, they do the the Spike Lee Daldy shot at the end of this movie too.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, baffled.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_03]: At the end of the, by my life goodbye, whatever.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think they cut, I think this actually is how it ends.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_03]: He like walks off like down the halt like, you know, off the side state like stage eggs at a whatever.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it's Jessica Lang at the end of a hallway and he, they do the the Dali shot thing of him just floating down the hallway to Jessica Lang.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think she takes the veil off her face or something and then it cuts to him being zipped up in the body bag.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, whoa.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, this is, this is the thing.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the Spike Lee shot.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Not Spike Lee took it from this probably.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Other movies probably had dollars shots too.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's specific like locked off in the middle floating down the thin.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a, that's a very Spike Lee movie right.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: No, that whole sequence is amazing.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, why don't we talk about Lithko a little bit?

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: They go to Lithko to have him like potentially take over as director in the event that Jogidian dies, right?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Or is incapacitated like can't do it.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they hit, so that's the plan is his him kill take over for Gideon if need be.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they have that scene with the insurance guys.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, here's these three scenarios and one of them is if they, if Jogio's,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_03]: they get a in dies and they do not produce the play.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_03]: They'll make $500,000.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Look at the half the other half of the budget back.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And they all just kind of beat of them all looking at each other.

[00:43:29] Yeah.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Like God.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a weird thing where like the only way the show can turn a profit at this point is if Jogidian

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: dies and they don't do it.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And they don't make it.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Which man that's, that's the plot of the producers.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's sort of the plot of producers.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a real dislike.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Show business man.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It sucks.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I do like when they're doing the after life scene and you see like the producer of the show who

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: were like a plotting and like a curious leave.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, oh man, what did this cost?

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just a cost of fortune.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So we talked about it more about how good he is in the movie.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you think this fits into the great shadow roles we've seen so far?

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like unless you feel like that question's already been answered.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I just sort of feel like we talked about it a little bit.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know it's kind of guess we're going to throw it all the way back to the beginning with the curse of the living corpse.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Or what I'm sure.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that was definitely the most theatrical Roy Shatter performance right?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Fresh off the the regional theater circuit or whatever he was doing.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, but I'm trying to think of other movies paper lion is like about a real guy and a real thing they did right?

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of about the real sports writer.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm telling you.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess paper lion was really the all that jazz of sports writing.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm saying.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think those are all great choices.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's kind of the thing.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a weird like this 70s run is so good.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many great movies in this in this run of films.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, they were potential for even more.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we said, Roy Shatter was almost in the deer hunter.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And stuff like that.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think,

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this feels like a real like capper for Roy Shatter is 70s.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's totally in hindsight.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like it's just a weird like looking back on the career and like looking back on like the entirety of this decade and what Roy Shatter was doing in the 70s.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And also kind of the the changing film industry of this time.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it became a rarer for movies like all that jazz or apocalypse now to get funded to exist in this way.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I have like a full studio like fully behind them and pushing them.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, more movies like Star Trek the motion picture or the Star Wars movies or whatever.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there was a real shift towards blockbusters, you know, especially like a turning into 1980.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And Roy Shatter is a part of that he was in jazz.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's the character in jazz.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03]: They even say that, you know, in the movie when the stand-up comes out and that one studio guy is like,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: the lined up around the block, it's a real blockbuster.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's like, and they keep he's all excited until they see the review that kills him.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I don't know.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to like this this movie all that jazz really stands up heart from all of the cops hitman and assassin, you know, or spy movies or whatever that he made in the 70s.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's definitely definitely feels like it sort of end of the new Hollywood by sort of being about that the new Hollywood era.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no absolutely.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Any other scenes that you want to talk about, Mike, any random things about all that jazz that you feel like we should mention.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, someone that is not particularly familiar with Bob Fossy's Uvra, necessarily.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always like I said, I always heard the name and I always heard about his choreography and everything.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But this really feels like a when you when I watched this movie, I was like, oh, that's what Bob Fossy choreography.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like it all clicked into place that like all of the sort of like a modern choreography that I think of.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, that's all from Bob Fossy.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I understand that because you're not really a musical person in general right?

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm particularly yeah.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I sort of enjoy the movie's and like going to the theater.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but yeah, not like a particular big musical guy in general.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So like I'm not very familiar with a lot of stuff.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I like yeah, it's like, oh, that's what it is.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And like it all, it all, like it all clicked into place. Like I totally understand it and like why it would be is so groundbreaking and weird.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's all about that weird sex stuff. You know, like it feels so physical and vital, you know.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, other random scenes and all that jazz that I kind of wanted to mention, we briefly referenced it before, but Katie and the daughter dancing for Jo is so great.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's like, I think it's during like a screening of the stand up is happening at that point or whatever and he's skipping the screening.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, this is shit. I don't want to be part of this and that. I'm not going to be around for what's going to happen.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So he just goes home and he's like if they're cooking dinner and stuff like that and then they do like sort of a clearly like, you know, rehearsed to dance a little bit.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's like it's clear that like Katie and his daughter have been messing around and trying out a dance and they do it for him.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's really nice. It's really good. Yeah, it's delightful and it's incredible. They're so good.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_03]: There's like a little bit of a the talent of looking bad at something you're very good at that comes through on that because later it's supposed to be a hastily thrown together or sort of just messing around.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's kind of thing. But it's like fucking incredible. I don't like you say good, you know.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that's one thing that I also like where this would be a lot and kind of adds to the exhaustion that you feel with jogidian is that even when you have just like, you know, small like conversations with his partners or like, you know, his daughter or anything like that.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always like movement. It feels like stuff is always happening.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and sometimes that's just like like the argument he has was x-y for she's like, I have to keep dancing the entire time. Like it feels like there's always stuff going on and there's very little like room for you to just kind of breathe.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, yeah, they just must be so tired.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I guess they were also always on speed. I don't really get it.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_03]: What a wild time it was.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah, absolutely. Also in the opening sequence, the on Broadway montage. There was one line that I thought was really funny that I wanted to just throw out there.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's the moment where like you see two dances are going down a stairwell and one of them's like, fuck him. He never picks me for anything and the other one's like, I did fuck him. It doesn't pick me.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I love that.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's that right at the beginning when he's going down the line of like the final 10 people or whatever asking their names, right?

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he's like, oh Victoria, is that your home phone number?

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And like right away, she's like, knows, okay, I'm gonna have to have sex with this guy.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, yeah, I would have mastered.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he has sex with her and then she sucks.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And he tells her you suck, you're probably never gonna make it.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But then he, like, I don't know. He does actually try and tell, like, when they're in the rehearsals and she's like slow or whatever.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_03]: She can't keep up or can't get the moves right.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He tells her like, you know, I'm not gonna be able to make you a, I don't think I'll be able to make you a great dancer, but I can make you a better dancer, right?

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, actually, does try.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's that like really triumphant moment when she, like they do the whole number again.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And she nails it and he goes over and like kisses her on the forehead and like the whole room erupts in applause.

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, yes, you fucking nailed it.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's a bastard but with a heart of goal, you know?

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, yeah.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I think that's sort of the, that womanizing attitude that he had in his, he has, he has sleep with a lot of different people.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But Katie's like his sort of main girlfriend.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But he has like a, you know, a different attitude when she tries to call with somebody,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: she calls the, this guy Michael from like their bed.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And they had an argument about it right after that and she's like, I only want to love you but you make that so hard.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But then that sort of reflected at the end of the movie when it's like right before the bye-bye life sequence when, you know,

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: he's about to go into surgery.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And he kind of, and they're sort of arguing and she's like, I think I need to get out, but he has like this kind of tearful,

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I love you to Katie like that moment.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then right after that, it's a conversation between Shidder and the Angel of Death.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, why did you say that? Like, did you mean that?

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, what just seemed like something to say, I mean, but I think there is like, there's like a genuine emotion there.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But he has no idea how to express that for himself, you know?

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And he says that, I don't remember if it's that exact, that same conversation with the Angel of Death,

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but probably where it, he says like, oh yeah, I love you as like a tool.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And like it's useful sometimes. And then it like cuts to him to like diffuse and arguing it with Katie by saying I love you.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, but sometimes it doesn't really work.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And he tries to say that he doesn't, doesn't fuse this, like, so yeah, it's just a open and deeply personal examination of Bob Fossi trying to figure out why he can't love people.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Or why he will let them love him or whatever, you know?

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. And you know, is he going to be able to do that before he dies, essentially?

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, that final shout of the movie we talked about, but just the, you know, the bag closing up over his body is so bleak.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a, you know?

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like the only way this movie could have ended, I think, after that by my life sequence, like it has to have that.

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is just such a, it's such a gut punch. It's so intense.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Wolf.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Really going out, ending the 70s, which is the most downer ended the second.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This and sorcerer, the two most downer endings of all time.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. Yes. This was truly like December 20th, 1979.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like this.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: This is closing out the decade.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Of cinema.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Any other season you wanted to mention my anything else than all that jazz stands out to you?

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Not that I can think of off the top of my head.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that that erodica performance is, we should tell you.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It's great as a satire of musicals of the time.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I see you.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. Yes, but it goes on for so long and it's so fun.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like technically, there's a lot of really great dancing in it.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is insane.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the sex plane where people have sex in the plane.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, even the part, I mean, it's so long.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_03]: There's even a bit where the producers start clapping and getting, like, it's not over yet.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so funny.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And all they could say at the end is like, that was interesting.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And the average actor here's that in turns turns to his ex-wife and he's like, I don't think they liked it very much.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I love it.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_03]: It's so funny too because they spend so much that it's like second act or whatever.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Trying to crack that one move where they like all are all on their hands and knee or like in the push-up position or whatever.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And they finally crack and then it happens in the rehearsal and you're like, yeah.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the producers are like, yeah, I wasn't that good.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This is wild.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And it kind of just, it really illustrates like the chaos surrounding all of those,

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: like any of those kind of like choreography that was sets, that kind of thing where,

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: especially with somebody like Jo Gideon who's taking stuff and throwing it out the window and changing it constantly.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, coming up with new numbers, like new ideas for numbers, then having to have the songwriter who actually make that number and the songwriter being like,

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You just threw out my last number. Like I got nothing.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good shit.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Good stuff.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Should we talk about some letterbox reviews, Mike? Should we do it?

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Should we do it with people have to say it but all that jazz?

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Well, here we go. Got a five star view here.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_02]: These are pretty much all four and a half and five star reviews.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to be shocked if you found that.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. No, this movie is fantastic like we said.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, really, really, really love it.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a weird one where like I wanted to see it for a long time.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And like we, you know, I was musical adjacent.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think if you aren't like steeped in musical theater knowledge, it might not be a movie you like kind of seek out.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And so I recommend the people do.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a criterion disk.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is that.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's now a part of the giant eight hundred dollar criterion 40 pack.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That is coming out.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're a criterion starter pack, all that jazz is in it.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you can afford a small mortgage.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But here we go. It's a five star review from Josh Lewis.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine being able to conceptualize your own death with this level of bittersweet humor and sophisticated pageantry on the real.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The most joyously and regretfully theatrical work I've ever seen.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you suppose Stanley Kubrick ever gets depressed?

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I forgot about that.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great. That's very, very.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Here is a four and a half star review from Demi Out of Juigbe.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I cannot think of another movie like this.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We sat for a bit afterwards trying to find the right adjective describe it since sad wasn't really apt.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And the closest thing I can come up with is haunting.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The scene of Katie and Michelle dancing is so heartbreaking on a second watch.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: He could have had it all.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there are a ton of parallels in my life to bug fasses.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a daughter.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not working on Chicago.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I am black.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a...

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But I couldn't help but see myself in the few parallels that do exist, which made it all the more bleak

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and made me all the more wanting to go to the gym.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, a great movie to watch the same week you try to quit smoking cigarettes.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Torture test.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no absolutely.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's a lot of cigarettes smoking in this movie but at the end of it it's like, oh but you could be alive if you don't...

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a five star review from Chris Fiel.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The amount of coverage in the by-by-love sequence is like, yeah Bob, of course you had a heart attack.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's another five star review from Jesse Knight on a scale from 1 to 5.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: This gets a 5, 6, 7, 8.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus Christ.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have one more and this one is from Director Mike Flanagan.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Do I think also have to review on Jaws when we did the Jaws episode?

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a five star review from Mike Flanagan who said, last night, I had the great pleasure of rewatching all that jazz and cabaret back to back at the Egyptian theater.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: The courtesy of American cinematic.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: All that jazz is a towering masterpiece played in simple real-en-true.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't think of another film which an artist so thoroughly and futilely dissects themselves in full display of the audience.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Rividing, groundbreaking, funny, heart-breaking, profound, tragic avant-garde, Bob Fasi cuts himself open and lays out all the pieces.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The good, the bad, and all the rest, and one of the most ferociously original beautifully rendered films I've ever seen.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It contains the best editing I've ever seen in a film, full stop and its layers of genius have not diminished one note over the years since it's released.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: As I've contemplated my top five films of all time and ever shifting lists to be sure, all that jazz has never fallen below number two.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: This is one of the greatest films ever made.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was Mike Flanagan was the person I heard talk about.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Actually he was really...

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's all coming together.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Next, hearing him talk about it was when I was like, huh? Maybe there is something here.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, hopefully my Flanagan can take the influence of all that jazz into his next film The Exorcist sequel.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Wonder who's doing, we're channeling into WG2 for all that origin of evil which rules.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very good movie.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not all that jazz but it's very, very good.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Any final thoughts about all that jazz, my force I wrap in the sub?

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's one of those movies like I said at the beginning.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's one of the greatest movies ever. I'll get to it.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_03]: No, to put some fire on, go watch this movie as soon as you can because my change your life.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad that we got to talk about it.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad I got to rewatch it for the podcast.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully this podcast is good in comparison to the other major all that jazz podcasts episode.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Blank checked it out about Fasi series last year and Lin-Mil-Morinda was the guest in the all that jazz.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But hopefully you enjoyed it without Lin-Mil-Morinda.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're awesome Blank check. We're the same.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. We're the same stature in caliber.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, please give us $50.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right on our coffee page.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: By T, work 25 Joon Lannes Week.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me at MD Film Log on the Twitter and Letterbox and Bliskai and like Mike said.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You can donate $50 on our coffee page which is cofie.com slash Mike and Mike Pods

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_03]: where you can pick a topic. If you donate $50, pick an episode of the bonus pod.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Mike and Mike go to the movies and we'll talk about whatever you want.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: We double-dogged area you.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes indeed.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you want merch, we have merch available on our red bubble which is Mike and Mike Pods.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's red bubble.com.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. If I'm in the online at MSmith Film Log on Twitter, Mike Smith Film on Letterbox,

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Radio Mike Sandwich and Instagram, thank you so much for listening to the complete works.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike Smith is my sweet show. Don't forget to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: or any other podcast app.

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[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's WRKS, no-oh in the word works and you find the rest of our podcast and rapture press.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Alongside many other podcasts, bell kinds of comic books and movie news and all that good stuff.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Our theme song was Creed by Kyle Kullen who arranged for your own podcast.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The theme is at Kyle's podcast themes.gmail.com and our logo was designed by Mac V or at Fearless Guard on Twitter.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Next week, Ray Shutter, take it a couple of years off.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah?

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_02]: What up the nation?

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I think maybe all that jazz was a pretty intense experience.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And decided, you know what?

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to relax for a little bit.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's good for him, which is good.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But here returns in 1982.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So three years later with his next movie, which is still of the night.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is another Alfred Hitchcock homage, much like last in Brace, co-starring Merrill Streep

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and from the director of Cramer versus Cramer.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, really reuniting the titans of the 1979 Oscars.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right?

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Good time.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember to check out our other podcasts.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike and Mike go to the movies, for all kinds of other movie related stuff including Rease from

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Releases, ranked list, general discussions, and a lot more.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening guys.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And thanks for becoming a Hollywood Insider.