Ep. 4 - Loving (1970)

[00:00:00] It's showtime, folks. Some bad hat harrys. What was the weight of the car when you got it?

[00:00:06] You're not right from wrong. You just don't care. Benway! Oh sons of bitches. I didn't know.

[00:00:15] I didn't know. You're gonna need a bigger box. Hello and welcome to episode four of The

[00:00:27] Complete Works Season Four, a deep dive into the career and films of actor Roy Scheider.

[00:00:32] My name is Mike Smith and joining me on this journey across the Scheiderverse is my friend,

[00:00:37] co-host and fellow Roy Boy. Mike DiCrescio. How are you doing today, Mike? I'm doing great.

[00:00:42] You just reminded me that I need to see if one of my artist friends will design a hashtag Roy

[00:00:47] Boy t-shirt for us. OK, yes. I'm gonna write that down. Yes, please do. Also, a reminder now,

[00:00:54] Mike, that the closing bit at the end of the podcast is still roid between the lines. OK.

[00:01:00] And we need to come up with something. My God. So if you could think of something over

[00:01:05] the course of the next 45 minutes or whatever while we're doing this episode,

[00:01:08] that would be fantastic. I'll get right on that. I'll put my top man on it. OK, very good.

[00:01:14] So this week, Mike, we are exploring the filmography of a director who is pretty well

[00:01:18] known among a certain fandom, but he's really only well known for one specific movie. And that

[00:01:25] director is Irvin Kirschner, director of a little movie you may have heard of called

[00:01:30] The Empire Strikes Back. Oh, yeah, of course, Empire Strikes Back, the sequel to Star Wars,

[00:01:34] often considered the best film in that series, one of the best blockbusters ever made.

[00:01:38] It's my opinion as somebody who was obsessed with Star Wars as a kid and whose favorite

[00:01:43] was and still is Empire. I knew Irvin Kirschner's name for that reason, but never really did any

[00:01:49] kind of deep dive into his other work, which I think is the case for a lot of Star Wars fans.

[00:01:54] Yeah, I think also it's like a thing when you're like become like a movie person or whatever,

[00:02:00] or like other people besides George Lucas were involved in Star Wars. Like what?

[00:02:06] Yeah, I mean, that's the weird thing about, you know, George Lucas did direct all three of

[00:02:09] the prequel trilogies, the prequel trilogy movies. However, you know, he directed the original Star

[00:02:14] Wars and then he produced Empire and Jedi. He did not direct either of those movies.

[00:02:19] That's crazy, which is a kind of a weird thing to think about. Yeah. So Irvin Kirschner was

[00:02:22] the director of Empire. I never really dived into his other stuff. I did see a few years ago

[00:02:27] Eyes of Laura Mars, which is an Irvin Kirschner movie that is co-written by John Carpenter.

[00:02:32] It rules people should watch it. So in that. Yeah. Yeah. Faye Dunaway is in that one.

[00:02:37] I've never seen it, but I know about it. Yeah, you should watch it. It's pretty good.

[00:02:40] Eyes of Laura Mars. But after Empire Strikes Back, Kirschner did a couple of other big

[00:02:44] blockbusters. He did Never Sit Never Again, the Sean Connery return movie to the Bond franchise.

[00:02:50] Also RoboCop 2 was an Irvin Kirschner joint, which I just saw today as of this recording,

[00:02:54] I think is getting a Scream Factory release, like our shout factory, scream factory. They're

[00:02:58] putting out a Blu-ray RoboCop 2. But before Empire, Irvin Kirschner made his name doing

[00:03:03] small, quirky, independent dramas. And he has a long list of them that he made in the 60s and 70s.

[00:03:09] He then became a teacher at USC School of Cinematic Arts, where he met George Lucas,

[00:03:14] who was a student. And then years later, Lucas asked him to direct Empire. And he said his

[00:03:20] reasoning for choosing Irvin Kirschner was that Kirschner knew everything a Hollywood

[00:03:24] director was supposed to know. But he distinctly wasn't Hollywood. He just wasn't

[00:03:28] a Hollywood guy, which is also I think an underrated aspect of the original Star Wars

[00:03:32] trilogy is that even though they became a very like mainstream thing, they are very much like

[00:03:36] from the perspective of the outsider. They're still part of that new Hollywood wave of the 70s.

[00:03:40] Right. Definitely. Which is cool. So today we are talking about one of the wide tapestry

[00:03:46] of films that got Irvin Kirschner into the director's chair for Empire Strikes Back. And

[00:03:50] hey, Roy Scheider pops up in it too. It's time to talk about Loving. So Loving from 1970,

[00:03:57] not to be confused with the Jeff Nichols film Loving from 2016, is a loose comedy drama about

[00:04:02] Brooks Wilson, a commercial artist looking to jumpstart his career while his marriage

[00:04:06] to his wife Selma is slowly falling apart. Roy Scheider pops up as Skip Geyser,

[00:04:12] which is a great name for a great name. He is a co-worker of Brooks who pops up in two scenes

[00:04:18] kind of directing him to meetings. Yes. He's just an assistant basically. Yeah, it's yeah,

[00:04:23] essentially. So we'll talk about his brief scenes in a little bit. Brooks is played by George Segal,

[00:04:28] who at this point had already starred in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf and would soon star

[00:04:32] in some Mike and Mike classics like the Hot Rock and California Split. Love it. I was just

[00:04:38] the whole time. I was like, man, I should rewatch the Hot Rock. Yeah. And I was thinking

[00:04:42] that with California Split. Yeah, both both great movies. I think the Hot Rock was maybe

[00:04:46] a Mike makes Mike watch. I might go to the movies a while back. I think so. Yeah, probably

[00:04:50] last year or two. I forget. Yeah, I remember seeing it on Twitter and being like and then

[00:04:54] watching it and be like Mike has to see this. Yes. And I think we both put it in like our top

[00:04:58] 10 discoveries of whatever year that we that we watched it. Both big fans of that. And then

[00:05:03] of course, California Split features Jeff Goldblum in a bit part. That was, I believe,

[00:05:08] episode two of the Goldblum season and one of our favorite discoveries of that entire

[00:05:12] season. I think. Yeah, I know. I was thinking about that too also while I was

[00:05:16] watching this just about George Segal in general, that like I don't really know any movies that

[00:05:20] he's other than those like these three or four. I guess I've never seen Who's Afraid of Richard

[00:05:24] DeWolf, but I know he's in that. It's really good. And then he's on like whatever sitcom

[00:05:28] that my parents watched in the Goldberg's. Like up until the day he died. Right. He was

[00:05:33] like there. He was the old grandpa on the Goldberg's. Yeah. And I was like, man, where

[00:05:38] did this guy do? I should have always watching loving. I was like, I should really

[00:05:42] take a dive into George Segal's other films because he fucking rules. Yeah. Well,

[00:05:46] let's we forget Mike George Segal does pop up in 2012, which we talked about on Mike

[00:05:52] McGo to the movies a couple of months ago like a jazz singer on the cruise ship or whatever.

[00:05:56] Right. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Hell yeah. So yeah, he was still working pretty good

[00:06:02] for a long time there. But yeah, George Segal is the lead of this movie. He plays

[00:06:05] Brooks Wilson. His wife Selma is played by Eva Marie Saint, known for classic movies like

[00:06:11] On the Waterfront and North by Northwest. She also has a much smaller filmography than

[00:06:16] you'd expect. I saw her name like, oh, cool. Eva Marie Saint, North by Northwest.

[00:06:19] And it looked up her movies and there's like maybe 15, 20 movies like in the entire

[00:06:24] span of her career. She's still alive as of this recording. Ninety nine years old.

[00:06:29] She did pop up as Martha Kent in Superman Returns in 2006. And she played Katara on

[00:06:36] The Legend of Korra. So she was she did a voice role for like six episodes in that show.

[00:06:40] So that's wild. That's pretty cool. Yeah, pretty neat. So yeah, Eva Marie Saint in this from

[00:06:45] there. Sterling Hayden is in this movie from films like The Killing, Dr. Strangelove,

[00:06:50] The Godfather and The Long Goodbye. He plays Mr. Leprechaun, the account Brooks is trying to

[00:06:55] get the whole movie. Did I ever talk to you about I think it's called Terror in a Texas Town?

[00:07:00] That sounds familiar. I think you have talked about it. It's like a western with

[00:07:03] Sterling Hayden and basically like two guys are going to duel down the main street in a

[00:07:08] western kind of thing. But Sterling Hayden uses like a whaling harpoon instead of a pistol.

[00:07:14] And it's the coolest shit I've ever seen. This sounds like the best movie ever. So good. Yeah.

[00:07:19] OK, put that on a Mike makes Mike watch in the near future. You can replace Star Trek First

[00:07:23] Contact with that. Yes, deal. Keenan Wynn, also from Dr. Strangelove and several other

[00:07:28] films. He plays Edward Sherry Lansing, who was the future chairwoman and CEO of Paramount

[00:07:34] Pictures and the wife of William Friedkin. She plays Susan, a woman at a dinner that Brooks

[00:07:42] meets earlier in the movie. Roland Winters, who played Charlie Chan in six movies in the 1940s,

[00:07:47] plays Tom Plummer. Diana Douglas, who is Peg in planes, trains and automobiles and also

[00:07:52] Kirk Douglas's wife. She plays Mrs. Chalveson. David Ford, who played John Hancock in the

[00:07:57] musical 1776 plays Al. And finally, we've got our very first Roy Scheider reunion. Mike,

[00:08:04] it's happened already. It has happened already. David Doyle, who also appeared in Paper Lion.

[00:08:10] He was like the co-worker, like the like the guy who was telling him to do things. Yeah.

[00:08:14] He plays Will Parks, who is the guy who gets into a fight with Brooks at the end of the

[00:08:18] movie after Brooks sleeps with his wife. Wild. Our first Roy Scheider reunion. Will

[00:08:24] David Doyle make the five timers club? We'll find out back to terror in a Texas town for a second

[00:08:28] because I'm looking at the IDB, IMDb letterboxed. First off, 81 minutes. OK,

[00:08:36] beautiful. Sounds like a five star movie right there. Tagline when the Texas Plains ran with

[00:08:40] blood and black gold. Cool. I mean, great. I'm going to rewatch this later anyway. Sorry.

[00:08:45] Yeah, sounds great. It sounds like a really easy movie to rewatch. It's 81 minutes.

[00:08:49] You can knock it out while we're doing the podcast.

[00:08:50] But anyway, yeah, five time or I can't wait. That'll be great. Absolutely. All right.

[00:08:57] Loving was written by Don Devlin, who is the father of Dean Devlin,

[00:09:02] Roland Emmerich's producing partner in Neppo babies all over this movie.

[00:09:05] Yeah, whatever. Neppo fathers, I guess. Reverse.

[00:09:13] Yeah. Dean Devlin is a producing partner on films like Independence Day and Stargate

[00:09:18] and Godzilla. So we've talked about him in the past because of the Independence Day movies

[00:09:21] and the Goldblum pod and also 2012. Yeah, but yeah, Don Devlin wrote this movie

[00:09:26] and it was directed by Irvin Kershner three years after his previous film,

[00:09:30] The Flim Flam Man, starring George C. Scott and two years before his next film

[00:09:36] Up in the Sandbox with Barbra Streisand. Kershner's final film was RoboCop 2 in 1990,

[00:09:42] but he would work with Roy Scheider one more time after that, Mike,

[00:09:46] because Irvin Kershner also directed the pilot episode of SeaQuest DSV.

[00:09:51] Wow. Yeah, that's crazy. No matter what, there was a chance we would have gotten

[00:09:56] a Kershner in here because George C. Scott was on the poll, right?

[00:09:59] Or that's true. Yeah. Oh no, George. George is not in the poll.

[00:10:03] He was one of your five. He was one of your contenders. Yes.

[00:10:06] You were Jones and for Kershner joint. That wasn't Empire Strikes Back. That's

[00:10:09] that's what it sounds like. So Loving was released on March 4th, 1970. And if you weren't

[00:10:16] seeing it, you could have been seeing 1968's Funny Girl, which was number one at the box

[00:10:21] office in its 76th week of release. I think it might've got re-released or something.

[00:10:28] To come back. Yeah, exactly. I think Funny Girl was like a pretty big Oscar

[00:10:31] winner to like the year before. So, you know, it makes sense that it would be

[00:10:35] back. But yeah, that was number one of the box office. And like I've been saying for

[00:10:39] these past few weeks, I can't get the full top 10 for that weekend specifically,

[00:10:42] but I can tell you the top 10 for the year 1970.

[00:10:47] So the number one movie of the year 1970 was Love Story, which, you know,

[00:10:52] love means never having to say you're sorry. That's that movie.

[00:10:55] Oh, what do we talk about when we talk about love? Oh, that's a different thing.

[00:10:59] Is that from Loving? No, I forget.

[00:11:05] I forget the actual author writer, but it's the play they're doing in Birdman with Michael

[00:11:12] Keaton. But it's a famous thing. I can't remember anything about it.

[00:11:16] My English degree is failing me. Raven Carver? Maybe? I don't know.

[00:11:21] I'll look it up. English master over here.

[00:11:23] Yeah, look at me. All right. Love Story was number one

[00:11:26] of the box office for the year 1970. And it was followed in the top 10 by Airports,

[00:11:30] Robert Altman's Mash, Patton Woodstock, Little Big Man, Torah, Torah, Torah, Ryan's Daughter

[00:11:37] directed by David Lean, Catch 22 directed by Mike Nichols and The Owl and the Pussycat,

[00:11:42] which also star George Siegel. Wow. Look at that.

[00:11:44] Yeah. Siegel popping up again. I thought you were going to say Oliver's

[00:11:47] Bombo for a second. And I was like, oh, that was incredible.

[00:11:51] It's a little bit early for Oliver's Bombo, unfortunately. And I don't think it ever got

[00:11:55] any kind of real American release when it was coming out.

[00:11:58] Just always have Sam O'Han on the brain, though.

[00:12:01] Yes, of course. Which he would have been around 1970. He would have been doing his

[00:12:04] thing in Hong Kong at this point. The IMDB plot synopsis for Loving reads

[00:12:09] in this romantic comedy drama, George Siegel stars as a freelance artist who's

[00:12:14] attempting to revitalize his career just as his marriage to Eva Marie Saint begins

[00:12:18] to fall apart. Co-starring David Doyle, Sterling Hayden and Keenan Wynn.

[00:12:22] Nice. I would also like to clarify what we talk about when we talk about love

[00:12:26] is a 1981 collection of short stories by Raymond Carver.

[00:12:29] Hey, you got it. I got it.

[00:12:31] You got there. That's great. So Mike D going into Loving,

[00:12:35] what were you expecting from this movie and what are your overall thoughts?

[00:12:39] Going into it, I wasn't really never heard of it. Didn't know what to expect.

[00:12:44] I could only find a DVD rip of it. So usually that's a I want to say bad sign.

[00:12:52] But like, you know, a sign of something has been forgotten generally.

[00:12:55] Right. You know, I will I will say Loving is currently available on Tubi,

[00:13:00] which is actually where I ended up watching it because I couldn't get the air screen

[00:13:04] like the airplay on my laptop to work so I couldn't get it to play on my TV.

[00:13:08] So I watched it on Tubi and it looked great.

[00:13:11] Like it looked really fantastic. That's good.

[00:13:13] Yeah. I mean, the DVD version I found also looked very good, you know,

[00:13:16] as good as a DVD can look, but it was not all pixely and shitty like people lie in.

[00:13:21] That. But yeah, so, you know, George Segal, of course, like I was just saying,

[00:13:25] I'm not super familiar with a ton of his work, but the stuff that I do know him from in this

[00:13:29] era, particularly California Split and The Hot Rock love him. So I was like excited for that.

[00:13:35] But I was also just reading the synopsis like, oh, this might be like either

[00:13:39] really profoundly sad movie or something. I like to, you know, there's this can

[00:13:43] go any kind of way. I think 1970 like marriage drama thing, but it ends up,

[00:13:48] I think, being pretty lighthearted for most of it. While while while you're watching it,

[00:13:54] you can like feel the light hardness as like a like a veneer that Brooks is putting on that.

[00:14:00] Yeah, like it like totally reflects the character.

[00:14:03] The way the movie handles a lot of these things is his whole like,

[00:14:06] oh, shucks, like, what do you know kind of thing while he's just like

[00:14:08] basically self destructing his whole life. Yeah.

[00:14:11] But he's so charming and fun that you don't like even really like realize it until the

[00:14:14] final like like a literal fistfight he has with his wife or his wife beating him up rather.

[00:14:20] But overall going in like all throughout it, I ended up just like really enjoying it.

[00:14:25] It just felt like one of those movies that I think doesn't really exist anymore

[00:14:28] or at least was very prevalent in this period where it is just sort of a

[00:14:33] mostly realistic slice of life story about a guy going through a moment, you know?

[00:14:41] Yeah. I can't maybe like

[00:14:43] every case of Eddie's movie, you know, or, you know, I was going to say I recently watched

[00:14:48] John Cassavetes, a woman under the influence, which I had never seen before

[00:14:52] and thought it was phenomenal. And I was reminded of that movie while watching this,

[00:14:56] you know, it's just it's very similar in the way it kind of like,

[00:14:59] you know, just explores the lives of these two characters, like this husband and wife

[00:15:02] and the way like you kind of see their relationship sort of unravelling throughout

[00:15:06] the movie. And but then I was also I was thinking

[00:15:08] that how we don't get these movies anymore or recently.

[00:15:11] But this is a movie I've never seen, but the way that you've talked about it

[00:15:14] and what I've heard about it, Patterson.

[00:15:17] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:18] It feels like it's right in this wheelhouse, same kind of thing,

[00:15:20] where it's just about a guy do it, go through his life, you know?

[00:15:23] Is that a Jim Jarmusch movie?

[00:15:24] I don't remember that.

[00:15:25] That is a Jim Jarmusch joint, a JJJ as they call them.

[00:15:29] So that's pretty cool.

[00:15:30] So maybe I'll watch Patterson eventually because it's now that it's like on my mind.

[00:15:33] What was I going to say about loving?

[00:15:34] Oh, yeah, that it's just believable and he's just kind of like

[00:15:38] it avoids being the kind of movie that's like sort of I don't want to say like misery porn

[00:15:42] because that's like a pretty extreme version of this.

[00:15:44] But those kind of movies where it's just about a guy

[00:15:46] and just everything goes wrong and he misses every opportunity.

[00:15:50] And it's not that kind of movie.

[00:15:52] Like a lot of the stuff that happens to Brooks is because Brooks causes it,

[00:15:57] like actively turning down job offers or like actively pursuing other women

[00:16:01] and stuff like that. So yeah, I don't know that there's a sort of believability

[00:16:05] and kind of like charm to this movie that avoids being in this kind of like really

[00:16:09] just awful, like soul crushing feeling.

[00:16:12] And it's somehow fun, but also sad.

[00:16:15] Yeah. I mean, I was kind of reminded watching this movie

[00:16:18] of one of my favorite TV shows ever, which is Mad Men.

[00:16:22] Have you watched any Mad Men, Mike? Are you a Mad Men guy?

[00:16:24] I am not. I have not watched it.

[00:16:25] Okay. You should watch. You should watch Mad Men. It's really good.

[00:16:28] I got Patterson to watch. I don't have time.

[00:16:31] The two hours of Patterson versus the 80 hours of Mad Men.

[00:16:34] Yeah, I get that. That makes sense. But Mad Men is also, you know, it's both this movie

[00:16:41] and Mad Men are about like people working in advertising who are self-destructing their own

[00:16:46] lives in different ways. And sometimes it's very funny to watch. Sometimes it's very fun,

[00:16:49] but it's also like, oh, it's almost always like existentially depressing in a certain way.

[00:16:55] This movie sort of feels like a prototypical run for like what Mad Men would become later on.

[00:17:01] And yeah, I like the kind of loose nature of the movie. The first half of it is kind of just

[00:17:06] watching Brooks kind of bounce around New York City, go to different meetings, go to different

[00:17:10] stuff, like, you know, just kind of bumbling through his day. And then the back half of

[00:17:14] it is just this like kind of party in an up in like a swanky Connecticut home, right?

[00:17:18] Yeah. And I think that's the other thing too about this movie. It basically takes place over

[00:17:21] the course of like a weekend, I think, or like two or three days. That first half is where he

[00:17:27] is told he has like a 9 a.m. meeting in the city and he bumps into Roy Scheider, who's like,

[00:17:31] actually it's a two thirty and that he's out of the movie for a while.

[00:17:35] And then it's just him killing, you know, five, six hours in Manhattan getting drunk,

[00:17:39] basically. Yeah, he's getting drunk. He's going to meetings, going to like lunches

[00:17:43] and stuff. He's meeting different women. And then there's the one woman he meets Susan,

[00:17:47] the wife of the person that's there. But he's clearly hitting on her or she's like,

[00:17:52] she's flirting with him. She's the one who became the future CEO of Paramount Pictures.

[00:17:56] Amazing. Also just looks she was so hot. She's crazy. Yeah, everybody's beautiful in this movie.

[00:18:02] It's crazy. That's true. Yeah, everybody is is crazy beautiful. And I do think the two central

[00:18:07] performances of George Segal and Eva Marie Saint are really terrific. I think they both are

[00:18:11] great in this movie. Yeah, they're really incredible together. And with the kids here,

[00:18:15] they have two daughters who are very funny and their whole relationship as a family is

[00:18:20] very like real and believable, I think. Yeah, I think that's one of my favorite. That's something

[00:18:24] I've noticed with certain movies from the 60s and 70s that I feel like is less well captured now

[00:18:30] is just like the chaos of like young children in a house. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like

[00:18:35] those two kids are, you know, they're they're screaming. They're like playing with their toys.

[00:18:38] They're fighting each other constantly. Like they're doing like random stupid kid stuff,

[00:18:42] right? Yeah, they're in a staring contest, right? Yeah, exactly. Or they're like ones

[00:18:46] getting mad because like the daddy at the cupcake and she wants that specific cupcake and

[00:18:50] all that kind of stuff. And I feel like those are like very realistic feeling interactions with

[00:18:55] children that I don't see in movies all that often today. You know, that's something that I

[00:19:01] feel like movies from the 70s like really got that for some reason. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:19:05] I just kids in modern movies often feel so precocious and stuff. And that'll like come

[00:19:11] like, sure. Yeah, I don't know if that's like the Internet has made children more adult

[00:19:16] or something. I don't know. That could be it, too. Maybe because all the movies these

[00:19:20] days just kids staring at their phones like, yeah, it's a lot of it's all this like weird

[00:19:24] post irony stuff that we don't have time for or not the not smart enough to understand.

[00:19:30] But yeah, it made me think even though it's not Roy Scheider in this movie,

[00:19:34] in this scene, but the moment in Jaws when Chief Brody gets drunk and his son is copying

[00:19:41] him and they're like making faces at each other at the dinner table. Yeah,

[00:19:44] that is Russia. That's even in Jaws. Yeah, but in loving, in loving, it's not him in loving.

[00:19:50] That's what I was thinking of because I think that that scene in Jaws, I don't know, always

[00:19:53] feels like so like real and like you said, normal and like kids and parents interact when

[00:19:58] they're young like that. That is one of the best scenes in Jaws. Absolutely. I love that

[00:20:03] scene so much. It's so nice and so pure and so great. And like the moms watching in

[00:20:07] the background and all that kind of stuff, it's great. And I feel like if Jaws was made

[00:20:10] today, that scene would never be in it. That scene would not be in the movie.

[00:20:14] Yeah, it gives you so much talk about Jaws when we get to it, but it gives you so many

[00:20:17] emotional stakes for them. The back half of the movie and the pirate. The I said pirate,

[00:20:22] but that's not what I meant. Swashbuckling section. They should have made a Jaws movie

[00:20:26] where Roy Scheider was the pirate. He's a pirate. Quint is halfway a pirate anyway.

[00:20:30] Yeah, loving is great. We're going to sprinkle in Jaws talk for every episode leading up to

[00:20:35] Jaws. It's hard not to and probably several episodes after. Yeah, but yeah, I know this

[00:20:40] movie is really interesting too. Like it sets up Brooks during the opening credits, right? He's

[00:20:44] like his girlfriend or mistress or whatever is breaking up with him in the streets of New

[00:20:49] York City. Right. And you don't know that yet until I mean, obviously he's being broken

[00:20:52] up with and all this stuff. And then I think that sequence ends with him at a school pageant

[00:20:58] like meeting his finding his kid and wife in the hallway of the school. And it's like,

[00:21:02] oh, OK, we're just he's just one of these kind of guys. You know, he's just got a girlfriend

[00:21:06] in the city and he lives in Connecticut with his wife and family and stuff.

[00:21:09] Yeah. And the movie sort of plays that as a little bit of a reveal, right? That it's like,

[00:21:12] oh, he's actually married and has that kind of domestic side, which is actually exactly how

[00:21:17] Mad Men plays it in that first episode of Mad Men. Yeah. You don't find out that Don

[00:21:22] Draper is married to Betty Draper until the last shot of the episode, which like the

[00:21:26] preceding episode you've been watching Don like flirt and have sex with his mistress

[00:21:30] the entire time. And so, yeah, interesting parallels. I do want I wonder if Matthew Weiner

[00:21:36] is a fan of of 1970s loving. Yeah, maybe or just like I think they even reference

[00:21:40] like Madison Avenue in the boot in in loving at one point in the dialogue.

[00:21:44] Like, you know, there's somebody like, yo, everyone up and down this avenue is looking

[00:21:47] for work or something like that. And it's like, I was like, hmm, I guess this is

[00:21:50] like the end of that era. Right. It's 1970. I guess that's like when is I don't know

[00:21:54] when Mad Men actually takes place? Oh, Mad Men takes place in the 60s,

[00:21:57] but it ends in 1970. Boom. Look, we're uncovering it. We're doing it.

[00:22:02] This is actually Mad Men was a prequel to Irving Kershner's loving the entire time

[00:22:06] the whole time. So that's wild. That's fun to think about.

[00:22:11] Yes. But all right. Roy Scheider is in this movie, Mike.

[00:22:14] Yes, he is in two scenes. What did you think of Roy Scheider in this film?

[00:22:19] I was very nervous after the first scene, which is like also a pretty funny,

[00:22:23] like comedy bit, whereas where it's George Segal running down the street and he goes

[00:22:27] in one set of doors and the camera moves down the building to the other set of doors.

[00:22:32] And it's him coming back out with Roy Scheider and Roy Scheider is telling him like,

[00:22:38] oh, it got moved. It's at 230, 230 runs away down the street.

[00:22:43] And I was like, oh, man, if that's the only scene that he's in,

[00:22:46] I mean, it ended up being a good movie anyway. But that's always a fear for these

[00:22:50] early roles. Yeah, which has been the case for the last couple of movies. I mean, so

[00:22:55] Stiletto, he had, I think three scenes, right? But they were all like pretty early on in the

[00:22:59] movie and then Paper Lion is the one scene and then he's gone and he's gone. Even though

[00:23:03] it sets up a bet where like theoretically we should be able to pay off that bet at the end

[00:23:08] of the movie. He doesn't pop up. He doesn't come back. But so then when he does show up

[00:23:11] later on at the meeting with Leopardine or whatever his name is, which is Sterling Hayden.

[00:23:16] So I was excited. I was like, oh, let's go. Maybe it's he's back. So that was exciting.

[00:23:20] And it's funny that it's funny his role in this movie is like so not the persona I associate with

[00:23:26] Roy Scheider in general. He's the tough guy who's been through it all and he's the main

[00:23:31] dude or whatever. And in this he's kind of like a like a weasley salesman. Just like,

[00:23:37] it's just like, this is what you got to say to get him to agree that this can count.

[00:23:40] You know, and he's like, oh, thank you, Mr. Like, oh, he's like all like really

[00:23:43] gravelly and stuff. But he's only it's only like a few minutes long. So he's not the main focus,

[00:23:47] obviously, of the scene is George Segal is. But it's pretty good. He does a good job.

[00:23:52] I think he sells it because he's right. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the typical

[00:23:56] Roy Scheider, you know, he's he stretches in various like there's other avenues of his

[00:24:01] performance. But I think in general, I kind of picture Roy Scheider as the

[00:24:04] mostly relaxed kind of guy. Yeah, he's he's pretty chill or he like hides how stressed he

[00:24:10] is under like a veneer of calmness, kind of like in Jaws. But, you know, you watch like

[00:24:14] French Connection and he's just like he's got his feet up on the desk or all that kind of stuff

[00:24:18] and just he feels like very casual about the whole thing. Yeah. And yeah, I think this he

[00:24:22] feels like the, you know, the harried assistant who is like kind of running from place to

[00:24:25] place trying to get business done here. And yeah, it does a pretty good job. He's fun. It's

[00:24:30] it's cool to see him pop up in these smaller roles. But I do think next week

[00:24:35] is it's going to be at least a slightly bigger supporting role. OK, what's next week?

[00:24:40] I forget what the name of the movie is. Hold on one sec. I didn't know if it was Clute,

[00:24:43] but I don't know what year that came out. Clued is soon, but it's not next week.

[00:24:47] Next week is Puzzle of a Downfall Child. Sure. Whatever you say. Well, I'm just basing

[00:24:54] it on like the Wikipedia billing. Like if you look at the Wikipedia billing for loving Roy

[00:24:58] Shatters all the way down at the end of the list, but on Puzzle of a Downfall Child,

[00:25:02] he's like the fifth name down. All right. So he's got to have at least a couple of good

[00:25:06] scenes in that movie, right? Yeah, right. I think so. I have at least one. Yes. Yeah.

[00:25:11] Roy Shider. He's good in it. Do you think this fits into any of the Roy Shider roles

[00:25:15] that we've seen so far, Mike? I mean, I guess it's closest to his roles in Stiletto

[00:25:20] or his scenes in Stiletto rather, where he's the kind of he's the defense lawyer for the

[00:25:24] mob. But even in that, he's got that kind of smooth like I'm in control of this case.

[00:25:29] The prosecution is on their back feet. They don't even have witnesses anymore,

[00:25:34] even though we killed them. Right. Yeah. But he's playing like that kind of thing. So

[00:25:38] even between these two movies, it's a very different avenues for his performance in that.

[00:25:43] So I don't know really if it connects to Paper Lion because that's a single scene.

[00:25:47] And then he's a cartoon villain in Curse of the Living Corpse. So it's really,

[00:25:51] really just Stiletto, I guess. Yeah. Living Corpse is a real outlier,

[00:25:55] I think. I think it's going to be going forward, a real outlier in the Roy Shider filmography.

[00:26:00] But he is so fun of that movie. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Any other scenes or moments in

[00:26:07] loving that stand out to you, Mike? Well, I mean, that scene with with

[00:26:10] Leopardine or whatever with Sterling Hayden is fun because Sterling Hayden looks like

[00:26:14] Abraham Lincoln, which is crazy. He's cool. Great. He's got the beard and the top hat

[00:26:17] and all that. But then George Segal Brooks spins this like presumably fake story about

[00:26:24] being a truck driver and totally pulls it off and like really classic Don Draper move.

[00:26:29] Classic move. Yeah. Real California split action also. Yeah. Just flying by the seat of his pants.

[00:26:36] But also he's like shit faced too, because the whole scene before that is him at that club

[00:26:41] faking a story to get drinks or whatever. I don't really know. You sense that he's got

[00:26:45] a little bit of a problem and he's housed at that lunch with the former Paramount CEO.

[00:26:51] And then he goes to this meeting late drunk and it seems like he's blown it because

[00:26:58] Leopardine wants photography because you can't. It doesn't tell lies or something. I forget what

[00:27:03] he says. Right. He's got some Sterling Hayden shit to say. Yeah. He makes the story up about

[00:27:09] driving trucks from Galveston to Key West or something and really melts his heart.

[00:27:14] And he seems to have got the account. He's got him on the hook kind of thing.

[00:27:18] Yeah. But he's not totally sure. He never gets like actual verbal confirmation that he has the

[00:27:24] account or anything. So the entire movie, he is just like there's that inkling of doubt

[00:27:28] of whether or not he actually got the account. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole movie too, he's

[00:27:32] getting other offers and turning them down and all this stuff. And his agent is like,

[00:27:36] what are you making me chase these jobs for? If you're just going to say no and

[00:27:39] like this whole thing, they need money. They want to buy a new house with the family and

[00:27:42] all this stuff. And that's just the, you know, the this balancing act of his self-destruction

[00:27:49] just like he can't. He's too proud to take these little jobs or something like that.

[00:27:53] I don't really even write. Yeah. He's trying to jumpstart his career into something bigger

[00:27:58] by going after this huge account at the expense of all the kind of smaller details

[00:28:02] that are going out the wayside, which, you know, that's part of his business life.

[00:28:06] But maybe that's also how it's going in his personal life as well.

[00:28:09] Oh, yeah. Just throwing that out there.

[00:28:11] Reflected in his marriage. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I did love the

[00:28:15] clip you shared from this movie, which you said something like, you know,

[00:28:22] like media literacy is so dead now that, you know, maybe we should bring this back where

[00:28:26] somebody comes like an old man across the street comes by to yell the theme of the movie.

[00:28:30] Yeah. Yeah. He's got, he's had this, there's this running gag with his next door neighbor or

[00:28:35] the neighbor across the street who's this old, you know, kind of curmudgeonly man.

[00:28:39] He's like, I'm I got to look at your house. You got to paint your house. Put your trash can in

[00:28:43] the back or whatever. He's like throughout the movie with like little annoying things.

[00:28:47] He comes over and knocks on the door and Brooks opens it. And he's like,

[00:28:51] can't we have a neighborly talk? And as he's saying it, Brooks slams the door.

[00:28:54] And the neighbors like Brooks, you got to learn to love click and the door closes.

[00:28:59] And it's like, and he gets cut off on what he's saying.

[00:29:01] Yeah. Brooks, you got to learn to love.

[00:29:05] Exactly. And so yeah, that whole, you know, that first half of the movie where he's kind

[00:29:09] of gallivanting around New York city, he comes back and he's drunk and he kind of refuses

[00:29:13] the dinner that his wife made. Right. And there's a very, very like funny slash sad

[00:29:18] moment. Like after that, where they kind of fight a little bit. And she's like trying to

[00:29:22] get him to come to bed, but he wants to work. And then like after he like refuses the

[00:29:25] dinner and she throws it away, he said, he like says something like, do we have anything

[00:29:29] to eat around here? Yeah. Just like really sadly, I mean, there's a really great like

[00:29:34] visual moment right before that. So they have that whole argument or whatever. And he goes to

[00:29:38] his studio to work and he's looking at slides because he's like reference pictures of trucks.

[00:29:43] He changes them out and it's a, and then the slide is a picture of the girl from the

[00:29:48] beginning of the movie, like his mistress that has broken up with him. Right. And right in

[00:29:51] the middle of her face is the door through which his wife barges in. And it's just

[00:29:55] like, ah, beautiful cinema, baby. Yes. Brooks, you got to learn to love.

[00:30:00] You get it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And then you kind of transition into the party scene,

[00:30:06] which is like the back half of the movie where he and his wife, they go to this like party

[00:30:11] in Connecticut, pretty like upscale party, a bunch of rich folks, all hanging out, getting

[00:30:16] drunk, all that kind of stuff. And while they're at the party, you know, it seems like at

[00:30:20] first is why he and his wife are, you know, they're having an okay time. They're all right.

[00:30:24] They're like actively, she, she like actively reconciles with him at one point. They go to

[00:30:30] the bedroom or he goes to call his agent and finds out he has gotten the account.

[00:30:34] Like he's it's confirmed. Yeah. And he turns it down, but doesn't say that to his wife.

[00:30:40] And she's like, you know what? Forget it. Forget the account. Forget the house.

[00:30:43] Like we're together and we're like, we can make this work. And she let they like

[00:30:47] rock each other. And you're like, wow, this is going to be a really happy ending.

[00:30:51] And then you move the mouse and you're like, there's still 25 minutes left.

[00:30:55] What could be happening? And then he just goes down the tubes. He just spirals, you know?

[00:31:00] Yeah, just just spirals. And you're not really totally sure what's going on in his head,

[00:31:04] but he seems like he's going through some kind of existential depression,

[00:31:08] much like Don Draper and mad men. And yeah, he ends up, you know,

[00:31:12] meeting this this girl who is the wife of his friend, friend slash co worker,

[00:31:16] I think like somebody he works with. Right. I think so. I don't know. They're there.

[00:31:20] That's also sort of the thing. Everyone kind of just like is around because it's 1970.

[00:31:25] You know, that's true. Yeah, it's a swing in time.

[00:31:27] It's so yeah. And Connecticut in 1970. Yes.

[00:31:31] But they're at the school play at the beginning. She's the girl that like pinches.

[00:31:34] She's the woman that like pinches his butt in the hallway.

[00:31:36] Oh, yeah. We should get lunch sometime, you know?

[00:31:38] And then her husband shows up and there's a couple of scenes like that.

[00:31:42] I think she's at the train station and flirts with him.

[00:31:44] And she's like, oh, Will is watching.

[00:31:47] You know, so it's like this been this brewing thing between the two of them

[00:31:52] throughout the movie. Right. And so at the party, they get together,

[00:31:55] they meet and they kind of sneak off into one of the one of the children's playhouses

[00:32:01] and they start making out in the playhouse. They start having sex in the playhouse

[00:32:05] and not realizing that there is, in fact, a camera in the playhouse.

[00:32:09] Yes. That has I guess,

[00:32:10] is a live feed to the main house and everybody is watching.

[00:32:14] Yeah, it's the first time we've ever seen check off security camera.

[00:32:17] Yeah. It was just seen earlier the earlier in the party where the how the owner is like

[00:32:23] trying to flirt with some woman who's also not his wife.

[00:32:27] It is like, look at this baby. And he's like, he got a remote that's

[00:32:31] like gigantic because it's 1970. Yeah.

[00:32:33] And got all these like cables coming out of it, which is very funny.

[00:32:36] And like a wall slides open and it's a giant TV and speakers and stuff.

[00:32:40] And he's like, oh, it's got every channel and he's like, blah, blah, blah.

[00:32:43] And check this out. And he's like showing off live camera feeds of rooms in the house.

[00:32:47] Yeah. And then, you know,

[00:32:49] the flashes on the bottom of the screen. This will be important later.

[00:32:55] That's how they get caught. Somebody sits on the remote or whatever and changes to the channel

[00:32:58] of the playhouse or whatever where Brooks and Nellie, I think it's her name, are having sex

[00:33:04] in the end. Everybody in the party is like, oh, come look at this. Not knowing it's them

[00:33:07] for a second, like for a while. Right.

[00:33:09] Yeah. They just like, oh man, two people at the party hooked up good for them or whatever.

[00:33:13] And they're all watching and saying, and like it's the crowd that starts to form.

[00:33:16] And then eventually, Eva Marie Saint shows up and she realized like you

[00:33:22] see like George Segal's face in the camera. Yeah. He sees the camera, like looks at it.

[00:33:26] He sees the camera, looks directly at it. And that's when she sees him.

[00:33:30] And also the husband of the wife that he's sleeping with is like sees him too.

[00:33:36] And so ever then it becomes a thing. Yes.

[00:33:40] Yeah. It just becomes a big fist fight and it goes on for a long time. I think the buildup to that

[00:33:45] and then also that scene where they're all watching that slow, like it's the first,

[00:33:49] it's like the three or four people in the living room. And then like somebody walking

[00:33:53] by is like, what is this thinking? They're like watching porn or something like that.

[00:33:56] Like it's just kind of like, whoa, like you dirty dogs or whatever.

[00:33:59] And then it's just slowly builds until it's the entire party in this tiny room watching

[00:34:05] these people cheat on each other or cheat with each other.

[00:34:09] Yeah. And then they all spill out to the outside and it's a big, big fist fight on this,

[00:34:12] on the lawn and all that stuff. Yeah. Will attacks Brooks and they fight for a while.

[00:34:17] And then it will eventually like backs off. Like I think his wife pulls him off. Right.

[00:34:21] And yeah, all that kind of stuff. And they all kind of like disperse.

[00:34:24] And then Eva Marie Saint just starts beating up George Segal.

[00:34:28] And that's the last image of the movie is like, I think he's being like, okay, well,

[00:34:33] let's get back in the car. And she just like, like punches him in the street,

[00:34:36] like starts attacking him. And that's the last image of the movie. It's also the poster

[00:34:40] of the movie, which is crazy, which is, yeah, that's wild. That's the final image.

[00:34:44] And it's very, it's interesting. So I saw the poster for loving before I watched the movie

[00:34:50] and I kind of just glanced at it and I saw like, oh, there's two people on the poster.

[00:34:54] And then it almost sort of looks like they could be dancing or something.

[00:34:57] Almost. Yeah. You know. And so at a quick glance, I'm like, oh yeah, that's,

[00:35:01] seems right. And then I watched the movie. It's like, oh wait, that scene is from her

[00:35:07] attacking him in the street for cheating on her. Yeah. And that's the end of the movie.

[00:35:12] The seventies were a crazy time. Yeah. I don't know. It's what I found the Roger Ebert review

[00:35:17] from when this movie came out and he was talking about the title being like,

[00:35:22] like not just being love, it'd be like loving, like the act of love,

[00:35:27] and like the way Brooks and Selma like have to, you know, actively work at being a couple.

[00:35:32] Like that's how that works. And a marriage and to make this relationship last like that,

[00:35:37] you have to be loving with each other and not just love each other in the way that that is

[00:35:42] Brooks is like straying from that. And he's like allowing himself to not be working towards

[00:35:45] his relationship with Selma. And he's all focused on his mistresses and his job and

[00:35:49] yada yada, all that stuff. And I thought that was really interesting. And that sort of made me

[00:35:53] I was thinking about that in this final moments where it's Selma trying to leave, right? She's

[00:35:57] like in the car and it won't start or stuck in the snow or something. I forget. And he's like,

[00:36:02] OK, it's over. I get enough. And she just opens the door and comes out swinging like

[00:36:07] it's wild. Yeah. Then she just beats him up. I think they kind of stop. She stops attacking

[00:36:12] him by the time it cuts to black or cuts to credits. But actually, I think the credits

[00:36:18] just play over them fighting now that I'm thinking about it. Yeah. It might be a freeze

[00:36:22] frame freeze frame. Yeah, something like that. But like, yeah, it's it was just really interesting

[00:36:26] that it's the movie sort of up to this point has like he's going to get out, not get away

[00:36:30] with it isn't the way I want to phrase it, but like it might be fine. Right. Like maybe him and

[00:36:34] Nellie aren't going to have sex. Right. Because like she sends him inside to get a drink

[00:36:39] and steals his pants and like all this kind of like silly stuff that might just be like

[00:36:42] leading them on. But like now they're fully like having sex and get caught and

[00:36:47] everybody's life is ruined. Yeah. You're you're said you're effectively watching like the

[00:36:51] dissolution of a marriage over the course of like three days. Yeah. 70s baby. Yeah.

[00:36:56] Yeah. Movies were sad sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And in the 70s, that was the majority of them. I

[00:37:01] think most movies that came out often had kind of bleak endings like downer endings.

[00:37:05] Yeah. It was actually so I was I was reading Cinema Speculation a couple months ago,

[00:37:10] the Quentin Tarantino book. And there's a big entry on Rocky 1976. Yeah. He has a long

[00:37:16] chapter about Rocky, which is really great. But he talks about how the reason Rocky was such a big

[00:37:21] hit, like such a phenomenal hit that people loved is because for once it felt like the guy

[00:37:26] won. Like it felt like, oh, this has like a triumphant ending. Yeah. And even Rocky,

[00:37:31] like he doesn't actually win. It's just he loses the match, but it feels like he wins.

[00:37:36] Right. Yeah. Why audiences like really glommed under Rocky. It's why it won best picture

[00:37:40] at the Oscars and all that stuff. But the reason is because every movie in the 70s

[00:37:45] had an ending like loving has where you just leave the movie feeling like sad and dejected

[00:37:50] and bleak. Just forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. Yeah. OK, sure. I guess exactly. And like by

[00:37:56] the time you get to 76, audiences are a little bit sick of that. That's so funny to think

[00:38:01] about. Imagine that was the problem instead of the blue beam in the sky. It's just these

[00:38:05] movies are all too sad. Yeah, we we've moved past blue beam right at this point.

[00:38:10] I think at this point we have. Yeah, it's but there's other problems to deal with.

[00:38:14] I can't think of them specifically, but there's a lot of I haven't seen

[00:38:17] a Godzilla X Kong, which has big blue beam energy. I have seen Godzilla X Kong. Well,

[00:38:23] first of all, Godzilla has a blue beam that comes out. That's a good point. So there's

[00:38:27] that. It's I have seen Godzilla X Kong and man, I was not a fan. I really,

[00:38:32] I really wanted to like it and I just did not. And I think a big part of the reason

[00:38:37] I did not like it is that, you know, I liked Godzilla versus Kong. I thought

[00:38:41] Godzilla versus Kong was pretty fun. That might have been like, you know, my

[00:38:44] that was my first movie back post covid. Like that was, you know, that aspect of it, too.

[00:38:48] Godzilla X Kong has no sense of scale. There's no moments. I mean, every once in a while

[00:38:53] you see like, oh yeah, they're standing next to a bridge so you can see how tall

[00:38:55] Kong is. But most of the time it's Kong facing off against other monkeys that are his size

[00:39:01] and they're in the Hollow Earth. They're they're in Hollow Earth, like 90 percent of the movie.

[00:39:04] Wild. And so Hollow Earth is all Kong sized. Right. If everything is Kong sized,

[00:39:09] then Kong just looks normal. You know,

[00:39:13] that's such a good point. That was my big issue is like he just looks like a normal

[00:39:17] monkey or like Godzilla looks like a normal like, you know, normal Godzilla or whatever.

[00:39:21] They look like human size. That's so weird. And it really and it really bugs me. I mean,

[00:39:27] there's other issues with the movie, too. But that was like my one thing where I was like,

[00:39:30] this is like really lame. I just watched Godzilla minus one, which is such a great job of like

[00:39:34] creating scale for Godzilla and all that stuff. And Godzilla X Kong doesn't really do that.

[00:39:39] There's some fun stuff. There's Godzilla is now like like he's sort of the Earth's protector in

[00:39:45] in the American ones. And now he's like at a point where he like whenever he's not

[00:39:50] fighting monsters, he's resting by taking a nap inside the Coliseum in Rome. Incredible.

[00:39:55] He just curls up in a ball and is like the Coliseum. Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:59] Which is fun. They give King Kong a robot arm, which is cool. I don't know. Didn't

[00:40:03] didn't work for me unrelated to loving. But you know, there's a scene you complaining

[00:40:07] about the scale that makes me think of the scene in loving the scene where King Kong shows

[00:40:12] when King Kong shows up and his I think a co-worker comes to Brooks and he's like,

[00:40:17] we've got revisions. We need you. The boss has notes. He's going through all the

[00:40:21] some like paint paintings and stuff that he's done and listing problems with them like,

[00:40:26] oh, this is at sunset. So we want the sky to be red, but a different red from the fire

[00:40:29] that's in this picture and like the bear doesn't look scary enough because he's not looking at

[00:40:34] the person. Can you like do something with his eyes? And then one of them is that the guy's

[00:40:39] wrists are too small. And that's the same problem with the scale of Godzilla X Kong.

[00:40:46] Yeah, I did. That's true. We needed George Segal to re to fix it.

[00:40:50] We need George Segal and everything. Yeah. I mean, not anymore. We don't want like

[00:40:54] CGI recreation of George Segal. That's a good point. I could see I could see a version of Star

[00:41:00] Wars that's like all the art house people cast in it from that era and like George Segal as like

[00:41:05] Han Solo would be so funny. George Segal's Han Solo would rock. That would be very good.

[00:41:12] Oh, man, that'd be so fun. Yeah. All right. Any other scenes in loving

[00:41:16] that you want to mention Mike and this stands out to you real quick?

[00:41:18] No, I think that's really it. I wish you know, it's it's funny. We talked about a

[00:41:21] little bit with Roy Scheider's size of his role when we did Curse of the Living Corpse and we're

[00:41:25] like, oh, baby, here we go. Like right out of the gate. And then it's just three in a row

[00:41:30] where he's got one scene or two scenes. Yeah. And that's to be expected, you know,

[00:41:35] with these earlier movies. But it was nice to have Curse of the Living Corpse as like an

[00:41:38] appetizer for the stuff we're going to get to later. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

[00:41:42] it's also fun to have seen that because no one else really, though,

[00:41:46] the other three seasons we've done that I can think of really like went to or really was in

[00:41:53] like a B tier movie like that, where it's like specifically supposed to be released alongside

[00:41:58] as a double feature. And oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they could have had major villain roles,

[00:42:03] you know, at the earlier in their career and stuff. So it's interesting that one that Roy

[00:42:06] Scheider was part of that and didn't get I mean, it's only one movie, but like didn't

[00:42:10] get pigeonholed in it. And it was like now you're only in these movies or whatever.

[00:42:14] What was able to then transition right into being like supporting and then major supporting

[00:42:18] in like actual, air quotes, actual productions. Yeah. And we should mention throughout this time,

[00:42:23] like over the course of these like, you know, past six years or so that we've covered on this

[00:42:26] podcast so far, he's also doing TV. He's doing a couple of different soap operas.

[00:42:30] True. So he's kind of doing some stuff there, which I would imagine again,

[00:42:33] we're not watching the soap operas for the podcast because that would be difficult.

[00:42:38] That's a lot. But yeah, I would imagine his performance in the soap operas are similar

[00:42:42] to Curse the Living Corpse, but maybe kind of turning into the more naturalistic stuff

[00:42:47] that we sort of expect from Roy Scheider a little bit. Yeah, yeah, true. And also

[00:42:50] theater, I'm sure, too. Right. And stuff like that. So yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[00:42:55] He's working. He's doing it. Yeah, he's working. He's doing his thing and he's

[00:42:58] going to have a big break pretty soon. Let's get into some letterbox reviews.

[00:43:02] Let's see what the people have to say about loving. First off,

[00:43:05] I have a review from Chabal, which is three and a half stars.

[00:43:09] You have to find it feasible that waspy jerks are compelling to observe.

[00:43:13] George Siegel is a fascinating repugnant case in loving, which is about anything

[00:43:17] but loving a film that I have long thought made an appropriate companion piece to Ang Lee's 1997

[00:43:22] masterpiece, The Ice Storm, which full disclosure, I've never seen the ice storm.

[00:43:26] I've heard it's great. I have seen it, but definitely when I was too young to know what

[00:43:31] was going on. OK, and I probably was like, this is boring as fuck because I'm 11 or whatever,

[00:43:38] whatever I saw. You know, I saw it just 11 years old and popping on the ice storm. Yeah.

[00:43:44] Did you watch it with your parents or did you independently? We're like,

[00:43:46] I'm going to watch the ice storms. I definitely did not like sit down,

[00:43:49] set out to watch the ice storm, but I was definitely remember watching it just on HBO

[00:43:54] because it was on and be like, OK, this is cool. Why are they putting all their keys in

[00:43:58] a bowl like you just like not knowing it's like not understanding anything.

[00:44:05] Fair enough. Both capture the 70s East Coast ennui and leanings towards sophisticated adultery.

[00:44:12] Siegel's Brooks Wilson is an advertising designer and artist who doesn't ever care

[00:44:15] to be sensual during sex with his mistresses. It's like he's doing it more out of the habit

[00:44:19] of one who enjoys getting away with something. Eva Marie Saint is the unbeknownst wife who in

[00:44:23] one scene makes invitation for some late night lovemaking if her husband will only put away

[00:44:26] his work. But Brooks is too neurotic being a fake busybody who is too on top of occupational

[00:44:31] responsibility to make time for her. In additional comparison to Lee's later film

[00:44:35] is a bourgeois party and freezing holiday temperatures at the end that makes the case

[00:44:39] that there is nothing more sloppy than drunken sex, which I haven't seen that storm

[00:44:43] that you have. You were 11. But yeah, the most shocking discovery in the credits is

[00:44:47] learning this was directed by Irvin Kershner, who would be George Lucas's most famous for hire

[00:44:52] 10 years later on The Empire Strikes Back. Not only the best Star Wars movie, but one of the

[00:44:56] most imaginatively lavish science fiction fantasies ever period. What Kershner is great at

[00:45:01] is invoking a shivery milieu and spotlighting actors in vulnerable closeups. Also in the cast

[00:45:07] are Sterling Hayden as an uptight executive and Roy Scheider as a hectic advertiser who

[00:45:11] nevertheless seems effective at his job. And yeah, we haven't really talked too much about

[00:45:14] Kershner as a director, like as a director of this movie, I mean. So I mean, his direction.

[00:45:20] What do you think, Mike? You know, I don't know if there's any thing that necessarily jumps out

[00:45:24] as like a flashy directorial touch or anything like that that I can think of. But it has this

[00:45:29] sort of natural just feel to it. I don't know, like this really conversational thing

[00:45:34] that's going on and everything's really believable. And it's that I think that

[00:45:37] we've sort of been talking about these a little bit generally that like transition

[00:45:41] like the new Hollywood kind of methods type thing and moving away from more like

[00:45:46] sound stagey stuff into like there's there's scenes actually in the moments in that very

[00:45:51] beginning opening credits stuff with George Brooks and his girlfriend breaking up,

[00:45:55] which has no dialogue or no sound. Like you just hear the score and stuff.

[00:45:58] Yeah, I thought something was wrong with my TV for a minute when I was watching it.

[00:46:01] Funny two movies in a row. Stiletto also had that. Yeah, but much more

[00:46:06] weird in Stiletto, which is like such a weird thing. Like this is clearly like

[00:46:09] a stylistic choice. And it's the letter is just like a two shot of people talking and

[00:46:13] there's just no dialogue. But this is like them running on the street and stuff.

[00:46:16] But there's moments where you see all the people in the background,

[00:46:19] like turning and looking at them as they're having like an argument in this.

[00:46:22] And I was like today, like not like I can't tell if those are extras or not.

[00:46:26] Or if this is just they went out on the street and really you two fight

[00:46:28] in the corner here and we'll film it. And that's that whole, you know,

[00:46:32] new Hollywood transition stuff going on. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

[00:46:35] I think the direction of this movie is pretty like precise and sharp.

[00:46:38] And I do think Empire Strikes Back is the best looking movie like it like of the trilogy.

[00:46:42] Really, I mean, that's like a Star Wars movie period. Maybe outside of, you know,

[00:46:46] Last Jedi looks great. True. Really good. Really good movie.

[00:46:49] We're pro last Jedi on this podcast. People are still mad about it on Twitter.

[00:46:52] I saw that on Twitter recently. Yeah. Some guys tweet when viral is like,

[00:46:55] guys, it's been seven years. Well, you have to remember

[00:46:59] that blue checks get paid on Twitter now for that. That's true.

[00:47:03] Everything from a blue check is a rage bait thing to make you click on it. So yeah,

[00:47:07] absolutely. Don't engage, don't engage. But there you go. Here's a review from

[00:47:12] Philippe Furtado is a four and a half star view. The masterpiece of the sad sack dude

[00:47:16] implodes his marriage with his libido genre. Yeah, very, very funny and also very harsh

[00:47:23] mixing satirical observation with an unforgiving eye. Irving Kirchner directs

[00:47:26] with a great sense of cinematography of action and timing and a real good balance

[00:47:30] between desperation, human comedy and little to no pithy. It is very unusual for something

[00:47:34] like this to take so few shortcuts and easy platitudes and a shift between very small scale

[00:47:39] situation drama and a cosmic vision with ease. Some of Gordon Willis' finest work,

[00:47:43] everyone in the cast does great things, but this is the George Siegel show and he

[00:47:47] nails the very male thoughts that the right amount of self loathing will allow you to get

[00:47:50] away with anything better than anyone before or after. Damn. I don't have to be put on blast

[00:47:56] like this. Yeah, that's a good summary of the movie. Here is a review from He Hates Cans.

[00:48:07] This is a two star view. This is the first Kirchner film I've seen that didn't feature a

[00:48:11] tauntaun. My official review would benefit greatly from the addition of a tauntaun,

[00:48:19] which you know, fair. I mean, tauntauns are great. And last one here is a four star

[00:48:23] view from Raul Marquez. In many ways, this is just some movie about some guy and the montage

[00:48:29] score and cinematography, especially for those first five minutes, are among the best I've seen

[00:48:33] for this kind of drama. Not sure how I feel about these stretched tragicomic finale, but

[00:48:37] I'm absolutely certain that a feature entirely about a peripheral Mad Men character that's

[00:48:41] nothing more than a pathetic fuck up is something that I've always wanted to see.

[00:48:45] And this is exactly that. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, there's also just reminded

[00:48:51] like a sort of like bad cap comedy energy to this a little bit where the scene in particular,

[00:48:56] where he goes to his like studio or whatever with his agent and the agent is stuck in

[00:49:02] the bathroom. And then he's like, Brooks, open the door. And he pulls the doorknob off.

[00:49:06] And so he's just they just have a conversation where he's trapped in the bathroom

[00:49:09] for like a couple of minutes before that other guy shows up and knows how to open the door.

[00:49:13] And like it's just that that kind of blending of like, you know, I know this could be in

[00:49:16] a screwball comedy with, you know, Cary Grant or something. But it's like in this kind of sad

[00:49:20] tragic movie instead. Yeah, absolutely. So there it is. That's loving from 1970 directed

[00:49:28] by Irwin Kirchner starring George Siegel and featuring Roy Shider in a very small role.

[00:49:32] Yes. Yeah. Any last thoughts, Mike? No, I'm pleasantly surprised pretty much.

[00:49:37] Yeah, I feel like this era could have kind of could have gone either way.

[00:49:41] Or this just being like a slog or something like that, like shout out last week.

[00:49:45] But I mean, I guess I trust in George Siegel. You know? Yeah, there you go.

[00:49:49] George Siegel will carry you through. All right, Mike, where can we find you on land this week?

[00:49:53] You can find me at M.G. Film Blog on Twitter and Letterboxd and Blue Sky,

[00:49:58] where you can also find the podcast at Mike and Mike Pods dot VSky dot social.

[00:50:02] I mean, we finally did it week four or whatever this is. But we did it. Go find it.

[00:50:09] That's there. You can also donate to support the show on our Ko-fi page, which is Ko-fi

[00:50:12] dot com slash Mike and Mike Pods. And if you want merch, we have merch available on our Redbubble

[00:50:17] at Mike and Mike Pods dot Redbubble dot com. There it is. And you can find me online at M.

[00:50:21] Smith Film Blog on Twitter, Mike Smith Film on Letterboxd, Radio Mike Sandwich Instagram.

[00:50:25] I'm also on Blue Sky under M. Smith Film Blog, but I haven't used it in a long time.

[00:50:29] I'm going to get back into it one of these days. You got your media diary thing going?

[00:50:32] Yeah, exactly. Well, I had I had that as a Blue Sky exclusive and then it moved over

[00:50:37] to both Blue Sky and Twitter. And now it's just on Twitter. Now it's just Twitter.

[00:50:41] Yeah, it's really getting hard to morally defend still having a Twitter account. So I was like,

[00:50:47] let me let me get this going on Blue Sky. Agreed. But it's a tough addiction to break.

[00:50:52] It is. You know, that's the thing. And the thing is, like any any conversation,

[00:50:57] anything I see on Blue Sky, it's so much more positive than it is on Twitter.

[00:51:00] Yes. At the same time, there's so much less people on there that I feel like

[00:51:04] there's nothing going on. I never view the solution to your own problem.

[00:51:08] Be one of the guys that has to go on this guy. Yeah, I have to be one of the

[00:51:12] blue on blue. See you're saying Twitter. I did it. I did. Yeah.

[00:51:16] Maybe I'm part of the problem. Yeah, there it is. All right.

[00:51:19] Thank you for listening to Complete Works. I'm Mike Smith. It's my decree show.

[00:51:22] Don't forget to rate and view the show on Apple Podcasts or any other podcast app.

[00:51:25] And if you want to contact us, you can tweet at us or I guess go to Blue Sky.

[00:51:29] Ski. Yes, ski that is that really what they call it on this?

[00:51:33] So I think they did a thing where they were like, we're not going to come up with a term

[00:51:37] like we'll let it naturally come out of the community and they're just like,

[00:51:40] skeet, you asshole. It's like the body, McBoatface, like kindrum, like, you know.

[00:51:46] Yeah. So it's colloquially known as a skeet. There you go. OK, so at Complete Works

[00:51:51] spot on Twitter and at Mike and Mike Pods on Blue Sky. And you can find the rest of our

[00:51:56] podcast in Rapture Press alongside many other podcasts, but how about books and movie news

[00:52:00] and all that good stuff? Our theme song was created by Kyle Cullen.

[00:52:03] You can reach your own podcast themes at Kyle's Podcast Themes at Gmail dot com.

[00:52:06] And our logo was designed by Mac V or at Fearless Guard on Twitter.

[00:52:10] Next week, we're talking about 1970s puzzle of a downfall child directed by Jerry Schatzberg

[00:52:17] and starring Faye Dunaway in the lead role. And like I said, I think Roy Schider has a

[00:52:21] bigger role in this one than he has in the last few movies. So I'm excited about that.

[00:52:24] Fingers crossed. Yes. And remember to check out our other podcast, Mike and Mike go to

[00:52:28] the movies for all kinds of other movie related stuff, including recent releases,

[00:52:31] ranked list, general discussions and a lot more. And actually, I guess I should maybe cut that

[00:52:36] part out of the podcast now because all that stuff is going to be bonus episodes on this

[00:52:41] podcast feed now. That's right. So yeah, if you're listening to Complete Works, we're kind

[00:52:45] of merging the two podcasts and Mike and Mike go to the movies is now going to serve as

[00:52:49] basically bonus episodes of this podcast every other week. Yeah. So yeah, look forward to

[00:52:54] all that stuff right here. You can do it right here. You don't have to go anywhere.

[00:52:58] It's going to be right where you're listening to this. Exactly. So yeah, look forward to that.

[00:53:02] Thanks so much for listening, guys. And remember to always roid between the lines.

[00:53:07] You didn't think of anything. I didn't think of anything.

[00:53:09] OK, right between the lines it is. Good night, everybody.

[00:53:13] Forgot all about my homework assignment that he gave me 45 minutes ago.